NPC Deception/Persuasion and player agency

[Micah Sweet]

What I'll say is this - in order for your character's desires to be at stake in a game like Torchbearer players are making active choices to enter social conflicts where they are at stake. GMs do not have the authority to just have NPCs act upon you on a whim. Having constraints upon future actions is thus a result of you exercising your agency as player and then having to deal with consequences, no different than a goal no longer being achievable because of some external change.

It's basically a part of a deal - enter into a situation where you are trying to elicit change in an NPC's behavior or desires and expect them to do the same.

I'd also say that regardless of the impact of the constraints placed upon you are still making decisions about your aims every damn minute of play. Are you constrained? Sure.

I would say the constraints coming from the game rules rather than from the fiction and the PCs and NPCs in it is different.

 

[Umbran]

I'm not sure redefining what agency means for this sort of game is going to change anyone's opinion, on any side of the discussion.

Okay.

Please be aware, your surety will have exactly no influence on whether I choose to engage with others.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Okay.

Please be aware, your surety will have exactly no influence on whether I choose to engage with others.

While I get your point, its abundantly clear that a number of the participants don't consider player agency and character agency separable in a way they care about. So in practice they're going to continue to argue from that posture.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Okay.

Please be aware, your surety will have exactly no influence on whether I choose to engage with others.

Never expected it or wanted it to.

 

[Bill Zebub]

I'm just basking in the warm glow of having posted something that Micah agreed with.

Y'all carry on.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I'm just basking in the warm glow of having posted something that Micah agreed with.

Y'all carry on.

I treasure the times I find myself agreeing with folks I often butt heads with. Makes me feel less guilty about all the folks I've apparently alienated.

 

[Aldarc]

I'm not sure redefining what agency means for this sort of game is going to change anyone's opinion, on any side of the discussion. As I said above, @Bill Zebub 's explanation makes more sense to me, is more clear about what that sort of game is offering and asking for its participants, than anything I've ever read. More than sufficient explanation for me.

I think that my view of agency is more akin to what Umbran is describing, in part because I also think that it's a lot clearer. There is less murky water in trying to distinguish between character agency and player agency. This is to say that I view player agency as the agency that the player can exercise in playing any given game. Player agency reflects all the various things a player can do when playing a particular game.

In a TTRPG, a player's agency can extend to their designated character, both within and outside the fiction, and it can possibly include other aspects of the game or even other characters. It can vary depending on which TTRPG we are playing, the style of game we are playing, and sometimes the GM or group.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I think that my view of agency is more akin to what Umbran is describing, in part because I also think that it's a lot clearer. There is less murky water in trying to distinguish between character agency and player agency. This is to say that I view player agency as the agency that the player can exercise in playing any given game. Player agency reflects all the various things a player can do when playing a particular game.

In a TTRPG, a player's agency can extend to their designated character, both within and outside the fiction, and it can possibly include other aspects of the game or even other characters. It can vary depending on which TTRPG we are playing, the style of game we are playing, and sometimes the GM or group.

Well then, like others here that is not the kind of player agency I want, as a player myself or otherwise.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

I mean a player can have agency over various sort of things in a game, and different people want to have agency over different aspects. I think it is useful to be able to describe what sort of agency the game offers.

 

[Aldarc]

Well then, like others here that is not the kind of player agency I want, as a player myself or otherwise.

How the noun "duck" is defined is agnostic about my opinions on the animal. There are actually a tremendous number of concepts, ideas, and topics that for some reason don't bother to include my opinions about them.

I think that it's okay if you enjoy playing games or at tables where you limit your agency as a player to the actions of your designated player character in the fiction of the world. However, I think that we shortchanging our understanding of player agency in TTRPGs by limiting it to just that particular sense while ignoring the full picture of the various ways that players can exercise agency in TTRPGs.