D&D 5E Don't Throw 5e Away Because of Hasbro

[Imaro]

W

WOTC isn't sharing these stat blocks out of the goodness of their heart (and I guess that means I hope they have disclaimers in each article saying they have a financial interest in releasing these stat blocks) but to drum up interest / encourage people to buy the monster manual, suggesting that WOTC at least feels these stat blocks are enough for people to make a buying decision based on (and indeed I've seen a number of posters day they want to get the MM based on the art and statblocks shown, including myself - probably first MM I've been excited to get since 3e, rather than one i just needed to play the game) , so I think completely fair that some people will look at the stat blocks and determine that it isn't usable enough for them.
Otherwise you seem to be suggesting no one should be buying the MM until some poor guinea pig as bought it and played using it for say 6 months or so before determining whether they should get it. The number of pre-orders already in place suggest many people aren't going to wait for that sort of info before purchase, so can only rely on information provided to date.

I'm talking about taking a product (Monster Menagerie)which has been released, can be used and viewed in its entirety and has been for a while and then using a few previews of another product (Monster Manual) to then state definitively one product(Monster Menagerie) is more usable than the other (Monster Manual). My point was why assert something we have no way of knowing at this time.

 

[AlViking]

You do know it's illegal for companies to spy on union meetings, right? If they were hired by the companies to go to those meetings, that's an illegal act.

Your Rights during Union Organizing | National Labor Relations Board

You have the right to form, join or assist a union.

www.nlrb.gov

And again, one with a really bad reputation.

"They only have that reputation because of RDR2!"

So? They're capitalizing on that reputation. They're not trying to get away from it, like by rebranding.

I mean, when most people think of Coca Cola, they don't automatically think "it used to be made with cocaine." Most people don't freak out if you own a Ford car because Henry Ford was a nazi. Because those companies made efforts to bury their less-than-savory past.


So?

I do think it's a bit odd that he went from saying "they forced their way in" and "they were very intimidating" and "threatened me with jail time" to "everything is all hunky-dory, totally blown out of proportion."

Was Cannon just lying then? Seems odd, since he'd be biting the hand that feeds his source of revenue.

If you insist that the sources who initially reported it were lying or simply inaccurate, how can you also insist that the current sources you're getting your info from are honest and accurate? How do you know they're not just hopping on the trend of "those people were wrong, here's what really happened, if you don't believe us, you're dumb"?

I don't listen to podcasts/watch YouTube for reasons involving lack of time and ADHD. If you have a written source of your information, that would be good.


Yes, I've read that WotC said that, even in the earliest reports--the ones you claim were blown out of proportion. I guess they were correct in that one instance that makes WotC look good, yes?

Mind, I haven't seen anything that said they left messages or sent emails or a certified letter that they could use to support that claim of theirs. Did they? All I've seen is "calls went unanswered," and in this day and age, who answers the phone if they don't know the number?

I mean, in a big deal like "you may have received stolen property," you'd think WotC would want a paper trail. Because without one, it looks like they made the most half-keister'd attempt ever before they sent in the big guns.

Congratulations on finding a document that says you have the right to unionize. It says nothing about reporting efforts to unionize is illegal. According to wizards they tried to contact the Cannon multiple times and he has never denied it. Have you listened to either of the podcasts yet? Cannon stated in the second podcast that the whole thing had been blown out of proportion and I have no reason to disbelieve the guy who was actually there.

edit
from Interfering with employee rights (Section 7 & 8(a)(1)) | National Labor Relations Board "Spying" means doing something out of the ordinary to observe the activity. Seeing open union activity in workplace areas frequented by supervisors is not "spying."

The pinkertons were not spying based on that definition by reporting on open union activity and posts on public forums.

 

[Faolyn]

Because when you locate stolen goods as part of an investigation you of course get them right away before they're further distributed, of course. I am not even sure why you'd question it?

See below.

We don't "know" we just "strongly suspect" based on the information I mentioned earlier. Corporations don't comment on criminal investigations, nor do the police, generally speaking. Even after they're done, there is only liability that comes from commenting on such details and very little benefit to a company. I don't think we will ever know for 100% certain exactly what happened.

But here's the thing. This caused a lot of blowback. Obviously; we're still talking about it now. What some of you are calling misinformation is rife. WotC's reputation, only barely recovered from the OGL fiasco, got trashed. Everyone at my table swore again they would never spend a penny on their books.

Why wouldn't WotC put out an official statement on what really happened? There weren't any arrests or civil trials or anything like that, so there was nothing to keep them from speaking out. Was there one that I just missed and can't find?

I imagine that there are going to be people, maybe even you, who will respond by saying "you wouldn't believe anything they say!" but them keeping quiet makes it worse.

My friend, if you look back, it's you who used the term "wild west" and not me.

I've gone back like 20 pages and the only time I can find that I used that particular term is when other people are insisting that all I know about them comes from Red Dead Redemption. I've never talked about their actions in Ye Olden Days, unless you count 2020 as Olden. .

I was just repeating the phrase you chose to describe your own position. What I said was you specifically have the wrong impression about their non-protection departments. You repeatedly claimed they don't have investigators when that's not just false but it's probably their largest department these days.

OK, in that case, having done some research, I am willing to admit I was wrong about them not doing any investigations.

That still doesn't change the fact that they don't even advertise themselves as a detective agency. If you go the "About Us" section of their own website, they talk about security and risk management. "Risk management and security is not just what we do — it’s our calling." They don't talk about investigations there.

Even on the Investigations part of their services, it's primarily based around dealing with threats (violence, litigious, things like that). Closest I can find to what they did in this case is a mention of dealing with "loss prevention," but a more in-depth search brings up a video that doesn't exist (and was probably more of a history lesson than details about the actual department), and a discussion of the amusingly named Organized Retail Crime Theft (which they acronym as ORC, see, it's funny), where they talk about doing an investigation and then coordinating with the the police to do the actual recovery of the stolen goods.

So sure, I was wrong about them not doing investigations, but I wasn't wrong about that not being their focus.

And the bolded bit is important. What authority do the Pinkertons have to seize goods that may or may not be stolen? They're not law enforcement.

If they didn't seize the goods--if all they did was ask for them--then they're relying on their unsavory reputation to intimidate people into compliance. If some guy from Dan's Discount Detectives comes to me and tells me to hand over my Magic Cards because I revealed them a month too early, I would laugh at them and shut the door. If the Pinkertons come, I get worried they're going to hurt me.

In which case, people like me are correct to say that they were used not because of being detectives but because they have a reputation, deserved or not, of being leg-breaking goons. Which was my entire initial point in this sub-thread.

You repeatedly described events relating to their Protection departments when you knew at that point this matter had nothing to do with their Protection departments. You seemed to be doing it as an emotional appeal; apparently thinking if you can describe some portion of their company doing something bad recently then all parts of their company must be bad. Kind of a strange emotional appeal, given we're discussing D&D, where everyone understands Hasbro Toys is not the same as the D&D department of WOTC.

Those are very different things. WotC is a literal separate entity that happens to be owned by Hasbro. Pinkerton Branch A and Pinkerton Branch B are both Pinkerton.

I have not implied you're stupid or a bad guy and if anything I said seemed like I was implying that I apologize. I don't think you're stupid or bad, I just disagreed with your opinion. Nor do I care what you think of me buying D&D books. Why would I? I'm guessing you don't care what I buy either. That seems a strange claim to make.

You specifically haven't said that of me personally. The words of people in general are giving me the impression that they're are trying very hard to demonize the opinions of people who, for whatever reason, don't want to buy D&D24 or think other books are better. Look at the conversation between SlyFlourish and Imaro re: the Monster Manual. Sly even said that they liked the MM, they just think that Level Up's Menagerie looks better, and Imaro has decided to claim that Sly is "disparaging" the MM, completely ignoring that large chunks of it have been posted to this very forum. Even now, when I posted the screenshot of the MM24 gargoyle next to the Level Up gargoyle, their response is to nitpick about how it would get used in game, not to say something like "yeah, I can see how Sly might think the LU version is more useful."

If we don't want to buy 34 because of WotC's actions, we're told we're gullible for listening to things that were "blown out of proportion" or for holding grudges over their actions in other events (such as the OGL). If we don't want it because we prefer the older rules, we're stuck in the past or can't judge the new stuff properly. There was someone on a thread from early last year who kept trying to say that if we didn't buy the books, writers and artists, including those who do 3pp D&D products, would be harmed by us denying their income! (And presumably, they and their big-eyed waif children would all starve in the snow.) That one stuck with me, because it didn't seem to count that I was spending the same amount of money, or even more, for books from other gaming companies--it was only the D&D writers who counted.

So for some reason, there are several people in this forum who seem absolutely convinced that we must buy D&D24 products, and it seems that any reason we can give short of "I spend all my money on my child's life-saving surgery and can't afford to buy them" is a bad reason.

 

[Faolyn]

Congratulations on finding a document that says you have the right to unionize. It says nothing about reporting efforts to unionize is illegal.

OK, lemme pull up Wikipedia.

"Spying by companies on union activities has been illegal in the United States since the National Labor Relations Act of 1935."

According to wizards they tried to contact the Cannon multiple times and he has never denied it.

And yet they have no paper trail.

Have you listened to either of the podcasts yet?

Do you have a written source?

Cannon stated in the second podcast that the whole thing had been blown out of proportion and I have no reason to disbelieve the guy who was actually there.

Strange that it so goes against what he was initially saying. Why the change of tune?

edit
from Interfering with employee rights (Section 7 & 8(a)(1)) | National Labor Relations Board "Spying" means doing something out of the ordinary to observe the activity. Seeing open union activity in workplace areas frequented by supervisors is not "spying."

You may want to actually read up on what they were doing.

You seem awfully intent on defending them. It's a bit odd.

 

[Faolyn]

Usability...not stats. That's something that plays out with longterm usage and getting feedback as people use the books in their entirety in the contexts of their games. It's not just comparing one stat block to another.

That's why I put everything up there, not just the statblocks.

Edit: as an example how do you determine which has better usability... tables or a listed treasure until we see over games which one provides a better experience for more people?

I'd wager that the more information provided, the better the experience is. Obviously, some people prefer less information because they think it's unimportant or they want to make their own, or like more info but not the info provided--for instance, Level Up often gives a list of names you can use for individual monsters, and I don't have a use for that. But Level Up doesn't have a habitat section (at least not in the book; they do on their website), while the D&D block does.

Edit 2: Even looking at your stats... how are we determining better usability? The fact that I can more easily identify the stat block at a glance in the MM section is the only thing that jumps out at me without actual play experience.

Funny, I can more easily identify the LU statblock. You're probably just not used to LU formatting.

 

[AlViking]

OK, lemme pull up Wikipedia.

"Spying by companies on union activities has been illegal in the United States since the National Labor Relations Act of 1935."


And yet they have no paper trail.


Do you have a written source?


Strange that it so goes against what he was initially saying. Why the change of tune?


You may want to actually read up on what they were doing.

You seem awfully intent on defending them. It's a bit odd.

I quoted the applicable legal definition if you have proof that the pinkertons violated the law I suggest you contact the authorities. But you are right about on thing, it is a bit odd that I bother responding to what appears to be trolling. Hasta la Vista.

 

[KYRON45]

Sometimes i follow these long threads thinking to myself.....does anyone even know what they are talking about anymore?

 

[Imaro]

That's why I put everything up there, not just the statblocks.

For arguments sak let's say it is everything, any way the book could or does make the monsters in them more useabe (thought I don't think it is)

I'd wager that the more information provided, the better the experience is. Obviously, some people prefer less information because they think it's unimportant or they want to make their own, or like more info but not the info provided--for instance, Level Up often gives a list of names you can use for individual monsters, and I don't have a use for that. But Level Up doesn't have a habitat section (at least not in the book; they do on their website), while the D&D block does.

Too much information often detracts from usability and it's not just that it's also the actual design of the book... that's what I mean by how easy it is for me to identify the actual stat block in the MM (It actually stands out cleanly) while in the other book everything seems to run together, there's no color differentiation and there are text blocks upon text blocks that don't really make it clear where the actual stat block is I need to run it... How much of that information do I really need to run a quick 3 round encounter and how much is supperfluous to that... how much do I need to run the monsters in more prolonged usage and how much is superfluous to that and what is just superfluous or not overall... I'd have a better feel if I'd run games with the actual books. Especially if I'm an influencer who regularly reviews products and I'm just declaring one better without having used the other at all...

Funny, I can more easily identify the LU statblock. You're probably just not used to LU formatting.

No I explain it above it's the actual design that throws me not unfamiliarity.

 

[Clint_L]

Sometimes i follow these long threads thinking to myself.....does anyone even know what they are talking about anymore?

It's currently about WotC being evil because they once hired the Pinkertons, who then followed someone with stolen magic cards all the way to Bolivia and made them jump off a cliff. Or something like that.

 

[AlViking]

It's currently about WotC being evil because they once hired the Pinkertons, who then followed someone with stolen magic cards all the way to Bolivia and made them jump off a cliff. Or something like that.

I heard the pinkertons strapped the guy to a plastic explosives vest and sent him in a package to an amazon warehouse where people were thinking of creating a union.