D&D (2024) Martial/Caster fix.

[TwoSix]

You know, I also wonder how much of this Simulacrum abuse really happens at actual tables. Are you folks all seeing this in your own games, and that's why everyone seems bent out of shape? Or is this a more of a potential and theoretical issue?

I think few enough tables play seriously at Tier 4 to really get a read on how common it is. One reason I'm planning a 20th level game is to see exactly how unbalanced it really is, even with some of the house rules nerfs I have planned.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I still say the biggest issue with all the ideas that nerf spellcasters is that players don't want their caster PCs beefed. Homebrew that makes the PCs weaker is very difficult to pull off. Better IMO simply use a game base where casters aren't as strong rather than tell your players, "it's like in the books we're using for this game, except your character isn't as good as the book says it is".

 

[ezo]

You know, I also wonder how much of this Simulacrum abuse really happens at actual tables. Are you folks all seeing this in your own games, and that's why everyone seems bent out of shape? Or is this a more of a potential and theoretical issue?

I had one player a few years ago who wanted to do this once they hit 17th-level Wizard. Of course I nerfed simulacrum immediately, of course, by adding the following:

Only one simulacrum of a creature can exist at any time. If a simulacrum of the target creature already exists, the spell fails.

This stops the simulacrum, wish, wish, wish... abuse.

Worst cast scenario is Caster makes Sim A. Sim A makes Sim B. Done. Sim B does not have the spell slot to cast wish to continue the abuse.

 

[TwoSix]

I still say the biggest issue with all the ideas that nerf spellcasters is that players don't want their caster PCs beefed. Homebrew that makes the PCs weaker is very difficult to pull off. Better IMO simply use a game base where casters aren't as strong rather than tell your players, "it's like in the books we're using for this game, except your character isn't as good as the book says it is".

Yea, I've had a bunch of ideas lately to try and limit high level casting, but I've basically put them aside because the players are going to want to have fun with their high level spells.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I had one player a few years ago who wanted to do this once they hit 17th-level Wizard. Of course I nerfed simulacrum immediately, of course, by adding the following:

Only one simulacrum of a creature can exist at any time. If a simulacrum of the target creature already exists, the spell fails.

This stops the simulacrum, wish, wish, wish... abuse.

Worst cast scenario is Caster makes Sim A. Sim A makes Sim B. Done. Sim B does not have the spell slot to cast wish to continue the abuse.

I'm sure the player was super happy about that too.

 

[ezo]

Yea, I've had a bunch of ideas lately to try and limit high level casting, but I've basically put them aside because the players are going to want to have fun with their high level spells.

That is one reason why I prefer to reduce spell slots and known spells than nerf most of the spells, themselves.

By reducing spell slots, they still have them, so they have their moment, just not quite as many.
By reducing spells known (or prepared), they can have their shiny toys, just not quite as many.

I've found this is the best balance IME. So, at this point I only nerf spells which are actually problematic--like simulacrum.

I'm sure the player was super happy about that too.

The other option was they have NONE. So, yeah, they were pretty happy.

Maybe you don't mind a player making it to 17th-level Wizard and then having the ability to create near infinite simulacrums...? But no, thank you, not for me.

 

[TwoSix]

I'm sure the player was super happy about that too.

All the people in my group played 3.5. We're all quite aware of caster shenanigans and the dangers of infinite loops.

 

[Ashrym]

You know, I also wonder how much of this Simulacrum abuse really happens at actual tables. Are you folks all seeing this in your own games, and that's why everyone seems bent out of shape? Or is this a more of a potential and theoretical issue?

The simulacrum spell is restrictive enough to avoid abuse on it's own. It's the wish spell that causes problems. Easy solution is to ban the wish spell from the table.

 

[Micah Sweet]

The simulacrum spell is restrictive enough to avoid abuse on it's own. It's the wish spell that causes problems. Easy solution is to ban the wish spell from the table.

Restrict it to unique magic items and insanity rituals with too high a price.

 

[Corinnguard]

The simulacrum spell is restrictive enough to avoid abuse on it's own. It's the wish spell that causes problems. Easy solution is to ban the wish spell from the table.

"I wish No More Wishes."