D&D (2024) Martial/Caster fix.

[MuhVerisimilitude]

Tanking. In 4e terms defending.

Something that in 5E is particularly impotent.

If a fighter deals worse damage than a wizard, but tanks hits harder, that means all they are is a minor obstacle, since there are no mechanically supported ways to actively play control as a fighter.

 

[Zardnaar]

I don't think people care about playing controls a fighter. Hit stuff with stick or blow it up with fireball are fairly popular.

Sap,prone and some archetypes add fighter control options.

 

[mellored]

What is the end game, here?

To get casters to scale more linearly and not exponentially.

 

[Distracted DM]

To get casters to scale more linearly and not exponentially.

I think DnD has too many sacred cows to try that again after their attempt with 4e.
It can, and has, been done in plenty of other games- but if folks want it from WotC, I don't see them rocking the boat enough to make such a radical shift (again). Ofc, they did try something completely different with 4e, so it's possible, but they got so burnt by it I don't see a company like Hasbro wanting that sort of proven risk for no payoff (to them, cuz they, understandably, dgaf about the game rules like that).

edit: apologies, I forgot you were OP so you're just looking at house-ruling! we have a bunch of ideas in here though, I think yours is not a bad take!

I think something between yours and Creamclouds would be a sweet spot.

i wonder how something like this would work out?
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I wonder if we need to tackle unlimited Cantrips as well, or if that's my own axe to grind :'D

 

[CreamCloud0]

I wonder if we need to tackle unlimited Cantrips as well, or if that's my own axe to grind :'D

i don't think unlimited cantrips are an issue, i don't think we really need to go back to the emergency dagger or crossbow on casters, but i do think how much they scale is, if you consider their scaling as an analogue to extra attack you realize all cantrips have functionally extra attack (3), and even get it sooner than the fighter does (17 vs 20).

i think if they only scaled once at like, 8th they'd be fine but that idea is from before factoring any other changes to casting that's being proposed here.

 

[Ashrym]

it's not really a question of if the martial party 'would do just fine' though, it's which party would be more apt to face the adventure blind, the casters get their subclassess too y'know?, i struggle to imagine that a party with a war cleric, moon druid, clockwork sorcerer and diviner wizard couldn't match the martials and beat the adventure more easily, they might not match for DRP but when you've got another healer, spiritual weapon, wildshape, haste, bless, web, hypnotic pattern, polymorph, fly, entangle and more, the martials might have higher DPR, but the casters have far greater ability to multiply their chances to deal damage as well as mitigate, reduce and recover the damage they do take.

Those spellcasters are still going to run out of spell slots between 1/3 and 1/2 way into the dungeon. The ability to do several things followed by the ability to do practically none of those things isn't superiority.

The marital team doesn't do just fine. The martial team succeeds by not running out of gas before completing the objectives.

It doesn't matter many spells a spellcaster knows when they're out of spell slots. And those casters aren't matching those martials in damage is a big part of the discussion because monster hit points are huge. So huge that the damaging process eats up those spell slots.

A much better mix would be to take the barbarian, rogue, cleric, and wizard. That way the casters aren't wasting their slot on damage that doesn't get the job done anyway or out of combat things that the rogue can easily handle without any resource cost. It's silly for people to claim things like "but the knock spell" when a dungeon has 10-30 locks in it and knock alerts enemies to the party's presence.

Because the questions raised are equally relevant to multiple versions of 5e?

Sure, but if not specified I'm going to assume that the question is based on 2024 rules in a 2024 thread.

 

[MuhVerisimilitude]

Those spellcasters are still going to run out of spell slots between 1/3 and 1/2 way into the dungeon. The ability to do several things followed by the ability to do practically none of those things isn't superiority.

The marital team doesn't do just fine. The martial team succeeds by not running out of gas before completing the objectives.

It doesn't matter many spells a spellcaster knows when they're out of spell slots. And those casters aren't matching those martials in damage is a big part of the discussion because monster hit points are huge. So huge that the damaging process eats up those spell slots.

The problem as I see it is that what you are arguing is a balancing element is in fact the source of the imbalance in the first place.

The thing with D&D is that you can measure a class by how much burst they have, and how consistent they are. Martials tend to be able to fight longer. Wizards have resources and can burn out quickly.

I have made a race car analogy before and I will do it again:

The wizard is like a drag race car, and the fighter is more of a long distance race car. But D&D is always a drag race, because everything resets after a long rest, and the players will almost always get long rests after each combat. Being able to burst is more powerful than the ability to sustain, because you never need to sustain.

To make matters worse, wizards (or caster in general) tend to also get better sustain as they gain levels, meaning that the strict "advantage" that fighters have becomes less relevant as they level up.

This is one of the advantages of D&D 4E where the designers understood that all of the classes benefit greatly from a systematic approach to resting resources.

 

[CreamCloud0]

Those spellcasters are still going to run out of spell slots between 1/3 and 1/2 way into the dungeon. The ability to do several things followed by the ability to do practically none of those things isn't superiority.

The marital team doesn't do just fine. The martial team succeeds by not running out of gas before completing the objectives.

It doesn't matter many spells a spellcaster knows when they're out of spell slots. And those casters aren't matching those martials in damage is a big part of the discussion because monster hit points are huge. So huge that the damaging process eats up those spell slots.

A much better mix would be to take the barbarian, rogue, cleric, and wizard. That way the casters aren't wasting their slot on damage that doesn't get the job done anyway or out of combat things that the rogue can easily handle without any resource cost. It's silly for people to claim things like "but the knock spell" when a dungeon has 10-30 locks in it and knock alerts enemies to the party's presence.



Sure, but if not specified I'm going to assume that the question is based on 2024 rules in a 2024 thread.

how frivolous do you think these casters are going to be with slots? they're not going to be burning them left and right on every minor inconvenience, plus the cleric and moon druid are going to save on slots in battle relying more on their weapon and wildshape .a decent control spell or two and the group can probably cantrip spam through most of the fights without much worry, like i said in the post you replied to: casters strengths are in mitigating the amount of damage that they even need to endure in the first place.

a martial might be able to take a hit, but how does that stack up against the caster's ability to take away the enemy's ability to hit?

and i'll raise the point the original question queried about an adventure not a dungeon, and an adventure means far greater chances these parties are getting their long rests in.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

Didn’t we see a million versions of this thread before martial classes all got massively buffed? What is the end game, here? A fighter who can do the best DPR and the best mitigation and the most versatility in combat and handle all the social interactions and be the explorer?

In a text format, I find it difficult to judge: Is this a rather flat attempt at humour, just standard internet keyboard warrior hyperbole, or do you genuinely believe that this is what most of the people in this thread want?

No, then we’d get threads complaining that fighters don’t also get the wish spell.

Likewise this. What is the basis for this claim?

The funny thing is there are options in the martial classes to do more than some of the posts seem to imply. A question in one of the threads (I forget which was) party A (barbarian, fighter, monk, rogue) or party B (cleric, druid, sorcerer, wizard) to blindly go into a 10th level dungeon.

I think a world tree barbarian, champion fighter, way of mercy monk, and assassin rogue would do just fine.

The barbarian can give out a lot of thp and teleport ppl around the local battle.
The fighter at that level eats through heroic inspiration like pez candy.
The monk can heal.
The assassin was just because they also have advantage on initiative like the barbarian and champion fighter. Soulknife was also a consideration and Thief (for fast hands).

There are abilities in the martial classes that can do interesting things beyond hitting things and getting hit by things.

If all of your adventures consist of dungeons and combat, then I can understand how you might honestly believe that.
Most adventures however have a significant amount of non-combat, shenanigans, and scope for imaginative play. This is where classes with mental primary abilities and proficiencies can perform well even before they start delving into their toolbox of magical abilities.
Off the top of my head, I cannot think of any challenges that the only the martial party would be able to overcome. The only edge the martials might be thought of as having is physical strength, but between wildshape, summons, and the various spells that can more or bypass objects, I don't think that they have much of an edge there.

 

[Chaltab]

The wizard is like a drag race car, and the fighter is more of a long distance race car. But D&D is always a drag race, because everything resets after a long rest, and the players will almost always get long rests after each combat. Being able to burst is more powerful than the ability to sustain, because you never need to sustain.

Uh.. if the players are getting long rests after each combat then the DM is doing something very wrong.