D&D (2024) Is Combat Tedious on Purpose?

[EzekielRaiden]

IME, bonus actions are used far more by non-casters (or half-casters) than full casters. For non- or half-casters, the bonus action becomes "here's a thing you can do in addition to just attacking", which gives them some interesting (ideally) options. Casters usually get to have enough fun with just the one spell, and have rules specifically making it hard to use bonus actions (IIRC, 5.0 allows a bonus action leveled spell and a regular action cantrip but not vice versa; and I think they simplified it in 5.1 so you can just cast one leveled spell per round no matter what, thereby also closing the Action Surge loophole).

They both closed and opened it in 5.5e.

They closed it because you explicitly can't take the Magic action via Action Surge (so that's done regardless), and they made it so you can only cast one spell that consumes a spell slot per round. You can, however, cast any number of spells if they don't consume a spell slot, e.g. from a magic item, feat, or class feature, so long as they don't consume spell slots. The Stars Druid, for example, can cast guiding bolt a number of times per day without expending spell slots.

 

[Autumnal]

Many games are still in their second edition honeymoon phase where if no one really has dug in and criticized their game system and suggested adding the game elements which cause the tedium.

But this doesn’t at all describe a bunch of major games: RuneQuest, Traveller, Call of Cthulhu…even Blades in the Dark is more than a decade old.

 

[Zardnaar]

We are finding combats probably as fast as 2014. Due to increased power you kill stuff faster.

BUT if you use minis it will slow down. Minis/grid are needed a bit more cf 5.0.

 

[Minigiant]

IME, bonus actions are used far more by non-casters (or half-casters) than full casters. For non- or half-casters, the bonus action becomes "here's a thing you can do in addition to just attacking", which gives them some interesting (ideally) options. Casters usually get to have enough fun with just the one spell, and have rules specifically making it hard to use bonus actions (IIRC, 5.0 allows a bonus action leveled spell and a regular action cantrip but not vice versa; and I think they simplified it in 5.1 so you can just cast one leveled spell per round no matter what, thereby also closing the Action Surge loophole

That's the point.

Bonus actions were made so clerics can Heal + Attack.or rangers HM +Attack

But it became "How can I do BA every turn" for everyone.

A good idea to be more fun made the game more tedious and slow.

 

[Minigiant]

But this doesn’t at all describe a bunch of major games: RuneQuest, Traveller, Call of Cthulhu…even Blades in the Dark is more than a decade old.

It's about cycle she not actual age.

Many "popular games" don't have in internal discussion on the flaws of the game and how to fix them. They are in honeymoon stage still. No subreddits or forums on fire with "X is broken" or "Y doesn't work" threads.

 

[MichaelSomething]

Give the slowest PC a magic weapon that is +6 but loses the bonus (for the day) if their turn ever last longer than 30 seconds. That'll help speed things up.

 

[Clint_L]

Is 5.5 more tedious than 5.0?

For my games, yes, if we are talking specifically about combat. There are more moving parts in combat, specifically, which I tend to find the least fun part of the games.

I think the new rules are designed to appeal to players who are more into the gaming side of RPGs. My games at school are mostly new players, and we have to have short sessions, so the priority is just getting the basics down and giving them an opportunity to role-play. My games at home have players who love role-playing but most couldn't give a fig about rules and mechanics.

They are very fun to play with outside of combat, and even in combat in the sense that they often come up with creative ideas, but their turns take forever. So anything that adds more complications tends to add a lot of drag to the game, when typically the most entertaining parts of the evening are when they are interacting, figuring out clues, etc.

I'm coming to strongly dislike weapon masteries. Partially because the game is very unbalanced now at low levels, which is where most of my games are played, but mostly because, for whatever reason, my players really struggle to wrap their head around them.

I suspect combat with the new rules is much more fun for min-maxxers and more game-ist players, though, so take my perspective for what it's worth. Or if all my players knew the rules like I do, there wouldn't be much of an issue, but that never happens.

I'm curious as to how many folks play in campaigns where most or all of the players know the rules really well. I haven't since I was a teenager. I'd love to have that experience again!

 

[Voadam]

Basically we made spellcasters and magic strong while keeping them complex.

And in turn we had to raise complexity of non-magic casting aspects of the game to make them not be completely drowned out by magic

For example bonus actions were created so that spellcasters can do something else when they cast their spells. But by doing so we created a new action that every character wants to use.

It's not on purpose, it's just pure accidents.

Eh, kind of.

5e Bonus actions are a renamed 4e minor action, which are a renamed 3.5 swift action, which were developed in later 3.5 to more systemetize the action type of the once per round quicken spell metamagic which granted a spell a casting time of free action instead of standard action and allowed also casting a second standard action spell in the same round but no more than one free action spell and for a cost of preparing as a +4 level slot spell. Swift actions as a once per round quick thing action type then started getting used as swift but lower power spells and for some class abilities instead of as free spells and for some abilities like a bunch of class abilities in Complete Adventurer. 3.5 Also eventually came up with immediate actions which were like swift actions but which could be done on other turns to handle reaction type spells like using the feather fall spell to save falling companions when they fell as opposed to free action and swift actions which can only be taken on the caster's turn unless readied.

3.0 and 3.5 casters could already do standard action spell, full movement, and free actions every combat round. Swift actions was just breaking down free actions to ones that can be done only once in a round and normal free actions.

Pathfinder built off of 3.5 and built a bunch of swift and immediate actions for lots of things starting with quicken spell feat and the feather fall spell but building from there a bit in core with some feats and incorporating them in a lot of class and feat design for all types of classes as the game system development continued on after core.

4e used balanced the powers of characters across caster and noncaster and there are a lot of nonmagical martial character minor actions such as the Warlord's signature inspiring word 2x/encounter power as well as the minor action type being used for mundane things like opening a door in combat, store an item, or drink a potion. In 4e it was designed so that all characters can move, do an attack, and one minor thing each round in combat. In pre 3e it was very up to a DM as to what could be done along with an attack or a spell casting, particularly with things like AD&D minute long combat rounds. Sometimes it was do a thing instead of attacking or casting, sometimes it was in addition to.

5e kept this 4e action economy ethos as part of its core design and included things like the rogue being able to at will bonus action a lot of different types of movement type actions (dash, hide, withdraw, etc.) as minor actions and still get in an attack standard action and a move. For spell casters there is a lot of using minor action to continue controlling ongoing concentration spells so it takes away from them using minor actions for other purposes (this is continuing on from 4e doing so as well with minor actions and ongoing spells).

So this did start with quicken spell for 3.5 casters, but it was not to generally allow casters to do spells plus other stuff, it was generally for simply the power of doing two spells a round to nova quicker with greater action economy and sometimes for the rarer situational case of using a fourth level or higher slot to cast a low level spell while full attacking or doing a similar non spell action. Then it got expanded in continued design for 3.5 full attackers more with things like a bunch of spells that were eventually collected in the 3.5 Spell Compendium including more straight out of the gate swift action spells and feats and class powers using swift action abilities. This then became core for class power designs in 4e and going forward.

 

[Kromanjon]

For the people who don't like combats that just go: I attack, I hit, roll damage, I wonder how you all would feel about this kind of system if each attack might be lethal. I mean most modern fire fights are just people shooting at each other until someone gets hit. It doesn't sound all that exciting but I'm guessing (I've never been in a live fire fight) the people involved are pretty stressed about it.

 

[Zardnaar]

For the people who don't like combats that just go: I attack, I hit, roll damage, I wonder how you all would feel about this kind of system if each attack might be lethal. I mean most modern fire fights are just people shooting at each other until someone gets hit. It doesn't sound all that exciting but I'm guessing (I've never been in a live fire fight) the people involved are pretty stressed about it.

It's the old complex vs simple preference.

Diametrically opposed. Ones fast the other isn't.

5.5 probably tge best trade off between the two. It's not that much more complicated than 5.0. Less complicated than 3 0, 3.5 and 4E.