GM fiat - an illustration

happy to engage you but can you express why this obscures and mystified and why it isn’t helpful to broad discussion more concisely and clearly in plain English (having a lot of trouble following what the rest of your post is saying: and that might be on me, but really can’t get what us being said)

You can't just say "hands them the dungeon map" and leave it at that. In a conversation like this, with so many divergent systems and techniques involved, there are so many values for and variations of "hands them the dungeon map" that the statement reveals very little about what sort of play is happening. I mean, even just cordoning it off to D&D...or even contracting it further still to a particular edition like 5e? We have no idea what work that map is doing either in isolation or in concert with other aspects of play; freeform play vs structured play, using Exploration Turns/xp for Gold/inventory & coin & retainer management/Wandering Monster clock (etc) vs using some or known of those (and those randomly toggling on or off at GM discretion), does the map entail only the architecture or does it also include the key as well as the Wandering Monsters table, is some form of Fail Forward technique employed or does a failure mean that situation-state evolution comes to a halt (and then we need to circle back to the question of Exploration Turns vs a Wandering Monster clock or not)? That is before we even get to the agenda and premise of play...is "solving the dungeon" the point of play or is it merely a backdrop for something else (like the way The Road and The Quiet Place aren't about apocalypse simulation nor aliens, but rather about "Keeping the Fire" in a world that has abandoned it and navigating paternal love/duty/investment amidst the confusion of childhood and an unforgiving, high stakes world)?
 
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I just want to say @Manbearcat you do an excellent analysis on the type of game I most enjoy running, highlighting possible pitfalls, some of which I have experienced myself over the years.
I have in the last few years being concerned with illusionism, and you have guided me towards embracing gamism and introducing a more player facing game. That approach seems to have worked for my table who are an easy group and trusting of me and the process. I find it is a balancing act between being able to surprise/delight my players with secret backstory unfolding and introducing mechanics which players can utilise to make informed decisions which the table ensures does not upset our immersive experience of the story.

One thing though that caught my eye...



I have used DW mechanics, at your suggestion, for a PC's Nightmare upon almost dying and for a Sorcerer trying to purify himself from a Devil Pact - if you recall;
BitD mechanics for an exploration quest where they can fill their equipment slots as problems arise;
I have allowed players to create content for our setting (from NPCs to designing the look of a magical helmet found)
...etc

Is this all part and parcel of the variance you are referring to here?

Yessir, it is one part of the variance I'm referring to. When I speak to variance within the Trad sphere, I'm talking about two kinds:

1) Variance within the game itself (perhaps from one week to the next). What you're pointing out above where you harvest several different techniques and procedures from other games, perhaps excising some techniques native to the game you're playing, and basically treat your play as a toolkit sort of game.

2) Basically "play culture and system heterogeneity" with substantial variance across tables/regions despite everyone "playing D&D" or even "playing D&D 5e."

My advice for this sort of toggling on/off and toolkit sort of play would be for GMs and players to be 100 % overt about toggling on/off and porting/excising. For instance:

GM: "Hey, for this dungeon, the point of it is to basically solve the dungeon and get the treasure. To that end, we're basically doing a 5e version of Moldvay. We're using map & key, strict Exploration Turns, xp for gold, Wandering Monster clock, mandatory Rest every 6 Turns or you start eating cumulative Exhaustion, Fail Forward = Twists."

vs

GM: "Hey this week the dungeon isn't about solving it for treasure. This is about battling through the hag's goons, illusions, and tricks to get to her lair and save the kids before she finishes her digestion ritual! So we're just going to handle this via a series of varying encounters and a clock. If you get x successes before y failures then you're in her lair before she's finished her fell ritual; its a showdown with the hag and you have to stop her ritual and defeat her! If you get y failures before x successes, then the ritual has gone off and...well...you can figure that out!"

The worst in the Trad sphere is when this stuff isn't overt (either purposefully for Illusionism interests or Immersionism interests or accidentally merely because the GM doesn't understand an alternative model). The GM obscures or manipulates how the gamestate evolves. Simultaneously, that GM provides a pretty vacuous and/or nearly univariate (and often blind or nearly so) decision-space masked as "limitless" or a rudderless milieu bereft of clear stakes and not remotely sufficiently charged with conflict/action/momentum. Players are perpetually in the unfortunate state of an inconsistent orientation to play broadly, a cognitive loop that is often wrongfooted, and a suite of assets/currency that are unreliable.

There are solves to this, but most/all of them entail very overt signaling/communication (at least deft signposting). If you aren't engaging in Illusionism + you don't like alternative models... then you're going to have to figure out your players. And this is where things can get sticky, and another form of variance invests Trad play and its social dynamics with hardship. This spread of players below in a Trad game is not remotely uncommon:

Sally: Detests overt gameplay and metaconversations (the old saw; "I just want the rules to get out of the way..."). She is basically a Participationist LARPER. She wants GM Storytime, Ouija play, actively expecting the GM to control the planchette and manipulate the situation-state. Sally feels her role is to provide bold color, affectation, and characterization until we arrive at the climax. Only at that point does Sally want actual control of the planchette.

Sue: Deckbuilding Optimizer. Feels that "the play" is overwhelmingly about preplay build decisions and build decisions between sessions upon level-up such that scenes/encounters are overwhelmingly dominated by build choice and their "engine coming online" which overwhelms the system's inputs (encounter budgeting, NPC rosters). Happy to have the GM hard frame between scenes to "get to the action," but that scene-framing better respect the immediate "scene win" and the wins piled up to date. Where there is consequential action, they demand to have control the planchette.

Samantha: Sim Dollhouse Player and Setting Tourist. Isn't interested in conflict-charged or premise-forward play. Very much against hard scene-framing. Mostly wants to wander and explore, freeplay tavern parties, attend balls/weddings/galas, have some freeform social intrigue, maybe start a shop. Definitely wants to passively explore a color-rich setting, chew scenery, and talk to NPCs where the GM's entertainer hat goes to 11.

Pleasing all three of those players simultaneously is an absolute ask & a half....impossible really. However....it is possible to manage this table if (a) you toggle modes of play, (b) you are 100 % overt about it, (c) Sally, Sue, Samantha can tolerate the dynamic, (d) the GM can handle (and enjoys) the extreme bandwidth and load demands.
 

Okay, so aside from the GM notes part, how does the rest not pertain to a mystery based game without a fixed solution to the mystery? Those games are also about players being immersed in the solving of a mystery or exploration of an adventure.
I never said such an adventure wasn't immersive, I said you aren't really solving a real mystery. You might be producing a solution tot he mystery, or the system might be. My point is because the details of the mystery are established, the players can go through steps of gathering information, seeing clues, putting things together and actually figure out what happened. That is a very different experience from one where the answer to the central mystery was yet to be determined (and so you couldn't do those things because. And again, neither is a better or worse game. But in one you are actually solving the mystery, in the other you aren't
 

The notes… whether written down or just remembered… are the resolution. They’re more than just a tool. They are the goal.

The notes are information. They aren't the goal

Everything else you describe here is not unique to this style of gaming that you’re advocating.

We'd have to go over everything to see if it handles any of these things uniquely. But that isn't the point. The point is these are important aspects of play


I don’t think it does. I have no problem at all with this type of game. I enjoy them frequently. One of my best friends loves to run Call of Cthulhu and Delta Green. These games are exactly the kind that you’re talking about. They’re evocative and flavorful and entertaining.

The goal of them is also very often to find out the solution that’s been determined by the GM or the scenario’s writer.

All this talk of immersion and the like is not unique to this type of play. It’s the predetermination that’s the differentiator.

I don't think we are going to see eye to eye but I think there is a lot more to the point than just figuring out the solution the scenario writer or GM has come up with. Not that this isn't a big part of it, but it feels extraordinarily reductive
 

So, you have now reduced the term to meaninglessness. I doubt that will be edifying...
No. In a game, you do have to work to have the kind of agency we have now but it is not about knowledge or ability to change the narrative. Monte does a good job explaining the two different forms of agency. I'd call the former just "agency" but the latter is narrative agency. The reason is when people have talked about agency historically they've meant the former most of the time.
 

You can't just say "hands them the dungeon map" and leave it at that. In a conversation like this, with so many divergent systems and techniques involved, there are so many values for and variations of "hands them the dungeon map" that the statement reveals very little about what sort of play is happening. I mean, even just cordoning it off to D&D...or even contracting it further still to a particular edition like 5e? We have no idea what work that map is doing either in isolation or in concert with other aspects of play; freeform play vs structured play, using Exploration Turns/xp for Gold/inventory & coin & retainer management/Wandering Monster clock (etc) vs using some or known of those (and those randomly toggling on or off at GM discretion), does the map entail only the architecture or does it also include the key as well as the Wandering Monsters table, is some form of Fail Forward technique employed or does a failure mean that situation-state evolution comes to a halt (and then we need to circle back to the question of Exploration Turns vs a Wandering Monster clock or not)? That is before we even get to the agenda and premise of play...is "solving the dungeon" the point of play or is it merely a backdrop for something else (like the way The Road and The Quiet Place aren't about apocalypse simulation nor aliens, but rather about "Keeping the Fire" in a world that has abandoned it and navigating paternal love/duty/investment amidst the confusion of childhood and an unforgiving, high stakes world)?

Okay that is fair. But I was responding to a person making a point about agency who also didn't make this distinction and just described agency as this ever expanding thing the more players have access to information (even information outside their character). So I am not saying this could have more nuance the more we get into specific types of games. I was objecting to the idea that a game which by its nature gives players more information is giving them more agency than one that doesn't because in many styles and in many systems, not having all the information will be an important aspect of agency (in particular in making meaningful choices)
 

Everything in your life is exactly as you wish it to be? You are unconstrained by social pressures, the law, financial considerations? You could choose to end global hunger or global conflict but you don't want to?
That is not agency. And that is the problem nowadays because the word has been corrupted. Freedom has been corrupted in the same way. You have the agency if you can attempt things that you will to do. It does not guarantee any outcome.
 

Thankfully, the legislators who added to the law of contracts by mandating truthfulness and disclosures in the context of consumer contracts, real estate contracts, etc didn't agree with you!
The Law uses so many words differently thank normal English that it is almost an entirely different language.
 

I think @soviet was pointing out to @Emerikol that people don’t have 100% agency in real life.
But actually they do. Most people can get up in the morning and drive to the coffee shop or make coffee at home. That is agency. It is not the power to do anything. It is the ability to do what you are capable of freely. And if you contract away your agency in a certain circumstance, that doesn't remove it. You chosen freely to do that and didn't have to do that.
 

So suppose that instead of referring to actions intended to prompt the GM to reveal what they have written in their notes I said actions intended to prompt the GM to reveal what they have imagined. Would that satisfy you?

No, I just fundamentally don't like this framing of it. One there is still more going on than just the GM being prompted to reveal note information. And it is a very static image. That information can change based on events. The players may be dong things that require the GM to adapt what is in the notes. And sometimes what the GM does isn't about 'revealing what they have written". An example might be talking to an NPC. Some interaction may include information the GM has in his notes. But a lot of it is going to be a fluid conversation where the GM is building a character on the fly (because no amount of notes are going to be extensive enough to tell a GM how to bring a character to life in that moment: they may inform how the GM interprets the characters once things get started, but it is more than just giving the players information on the page). I just find this description very reductive
 

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