GM fiat - an illustration

While a DM who can technically do anything can allow narrative play in any ruleset there are games where it is front and center. Torchbearer is one I believe though I haven't played it. In D&D, it is not there by default. Players wouldn't pick up D&D and think narrative play is the default. That doesn't mean the DM cannot turn the dial and allow however much he wants in his game.
I haven't played Torchbearer either but I'm not sure your characterisation of it is correct.

I think lots of people come into D&D and think that 'I go into town and find my sister at the tavern where she works" would be a reasonable thing to do. Also 'my character previously went to X place and had Y experience', or 'last night I went out to the uhh... Three Monkeys tavern and got drunk with a, uh, half-giant with a fiery beard!'.

I'm not aware that any editions have text that prohibit this.
 

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How about the Spire one from up thread? One a day a character has an ability that they can just say "hey I know a tavern/inn nearby with an owner I know" and 'pop', such a place must be added to the game world as per the rules.

So, in D&D (any edition), is a player prohibited from saying this?

What about if it's in their background? Are they prohibited from saying they grew up with a friend called Bob who lived in a town called Madeupplace?

How about games that have the "oh I remembered that rule" that let the players "remember" something they should have on their character but "forgot" to get or buy. So if like there character falls into a pit they can just say "oh good thing I was caring this 50 feet of rope the whole time" as they write down '50 rope' on their character sheet.

I agree that having/not having an explicit rule like this is a significant trait of a game. I'm not sure that having it makes a game necessarily narrative, or not having it necessarily makes it not narrative. Or what's even 'narrative' about it.

It seems to me that lots of contemporary D&D style play fudges details about lantern oil, spell components, rations, and the like, maybe even ammunition for missile weapons. Are they narrative games?
 

I haven't played Torchbearer either but I'm not sure your characterisation of it is correct.

I think lots of people come into D&D and think that 'I go into town and find my sister at the tavern where she works" would be a reasonable thing to do. Also 'my character previously went to X place and had Y experience', or 'last night I went out to the uhh... Three Monkeys tavern and got drunk with a, uh, half-giant with a fiery beard!'.

I'm not aware that any editions have text that prohibit this.
Me neither, but I disagree that "lots" of people come into a game of D&D expecting to just make these claims off the top of their heads and have them just stick.
 


I kind of agree with Soviet here to a degree. I don't think players are thinking that in there minds. The players become their characters and the campaign world is the one they live in all the time. So for them it is like us discovering our own world. But one some cosmic scale that too is just a set of notes either Gods (my view) or random chance.

I find this style done well to be incredibly immersive and actually thrilling. I find done poorly that it can be pretty poor.

I think the narrative approach is a different sort of game. Those that enjoy it have their own reasons and perhaps for them it is immersive. It is not at all for me. It would be more akin to a boardgame where each player lays down tiles to change the game. I might enjoy a one off boardgame with those characteristics but I wouldn't want to roleplay an entire campaign that way. And I am most definitely NOT saying narrative play is a board game. I'm just saying in that one element they share something with those board games.
Having a lot of experience in various types of RPG play, I don't find that there is really this vast difference, particularly in terms of immersion, as is often bruited about. Honestly, what I most find different between, lets say playing Dungeon World and playing 5e D&D (both of which I've logged 100's of hours as a player and GM, though I haven't GMed 5e specifically) is simply the degree to which the overall topics, the content of the story that is unfolding in a general sense is more about PCs and more closely matches with what the players are 'into' in DW than in 5e.
 

So, in D&D (any edition), is a player prohibited from saying this?

What about if it's in their background? Are they prohibited from saying they grew up with a friend called Bob who lived in a town called Madeupplace?
Well, sure a player can say this in D&D.

But in D&D the DM does not say "yes player" and create the tavern/inn right there for the character, like this silly game rule does in other games.


I agree that having/not having an explicit rule like this is a significant trait of a game. I'm not sure that having it makes a game necessarily narrative, or not having it necessarily makes it not narrative. Or what's even 'narrative' about it.

It seems to me that lots of contemporary D&D style play fudges details about lantern oil, spell components, rations, and the like, maybe even ammunition for missile weapons. Are they narrative games?
The Narrative part to many is when the player gets to influence and control the game...or worse, tell the DM what to do.

There is a huge difference between a DM saying "don't worry about any details lets just killsz monsters" and have an archer shoot 100's of arrows as it's "cool".

And "you can just reach into your pocket and pull out anything".
 

The three points may not be perfectly coherently described, but the fundamental disconnect remains.

There is a clear difference between any two of:

1. Portraying Sherlock Holmes in a stage adaptation of Hound of the Baskervilles (or any other specific mystery)
2. Reading a Sherlock Holmes mystery you've never read before, trying to figure out the real perpetrator as you read
3. Writing a Sherlock Holmes "whodunnit" yourself, which you hope someone else might enjoy reading and solving

Only #2 actually involves the personal act of "solve a mystery". #1 doesn't involve any solving because the task the person is attempting to complete is performance, not mystery-solving. #3 doesn't involve any solving, because the person in question already knows the answer in advance; they are instead producing a mystery for someone else to solve.

I don't see why these three don't correspond to the pure "no-myth" detective game/experience (you're portraying a detective, but you aren't doing mystery-solving; you're telling a detective story, but you aren't doing detective work yourself), a "some-myth" detective game/experience (you are both portraying a detective trying to solve a mystery, and also doing mystery-solving yourself), and finally a player-authorship of a mystery and then deciding what the solution was on the basis of past fiction and the like.
None of 1, 2 or 3 is playing a RPG.

Your #1 is about following a script. It has little in common with any non-degenerate RPGing.

Playing a traditional CoC mystery session has something in common with #2, but as I posted upthread it sells the experience short to treat it as identical.

Solving a mystery in a RPG like Burning Wheel or Apocalypse World has little in common with any of 1, 2 or 3 beyond the fact that there is a fiction that includes characters trying to solve a mystery. In particular it is not like 3: because the RPG analogue of 3 is the "writers' room", not BW/AW-esque RPGing.

I have never seen any of these things that actually achieve what you describe--doesn't mean they aren't there, I'm just not sure what in particular you're talking about that could achieve this.

Separately, I don't see how those constraints lead to the thing that seems necessary to me here. To solve a mystery as a player, the player needs to be able to reason about evidence, verify whether that evidence is reliable, and build a case that pursues the truth. How can there be a truth if it's genuinely not determinate until someone declares it so? Whether they declare it in a way that conforms to prior experience or not, it's still being declared, not being revealed. Whether there are or aren't rules that shape the choice, if there is no truth, there can be no mystery.

Like...consider a math test. It isn't and can't be a test to the person who wrote it, because they need to know what the answers to the questions are in order to grade the test. It is a test to a student, because there is a knowable answer (against which their performance can be compared).
How many exams have you set, and marked?

I've set dozens and dozens (multiple per year for over 20 years). I've marked thousands. It's rare for an answer to notice some aspect of the solution that I did not - there's a reason I'm the teacher and not the student. But on rare occasions it does happen: there are students who are better lawyers, and/or better philosophers, than I am.

Now my field is not mathematics, but there can clearly be examples in that field too. Here's a true story that is in the neighbourhood: a friend of mine, who is a mathematician, was once sent a paper to referee. My friend read the paper: it proved X, conjectured that X might entail Y, but also conjectured that establishing Y from X would be challenging. My friend, who is a brilliant mathematician and certainly stronger than the author of the paper he was reviewing, derived Y from X, and then wondered whether or not to include the derivation in his referee's report.

So we can imagine a maths exam that asks the student to prove A. And the stand-out student proves the more general B instead, and shows that A follows from B.

Now maths is low-hanging fruit for my point, because it is a domain in which (i) there are truths that no one knows yet, but (ii) there are procedures that are known, and that can take people to some of those unknown truths via deductively valid pathways (I say "some of those" for Godel reasons).

I do not assert that RPGing in AW or BW will generate material that entails a solution to the mystery with the strength in which entailment holds in mathematics. But I do assert that RPGing in AW or BW can generate material that points to a solution to they mystery with a type of viscerality that is real and can be experienced by those at the table.

In the 1950s and 1960 - in the latter days of logical positivism, ordinary language philosophy and Wittgensteinianism - people wrote essays on the "hardness" of the logical and mathematical "must" - as in, if I have 2 apples and collect another 2 apples, than it must be the case that I have 4 apples. I don't work in literary criticism, so I don't know if there is a corresponding genre of essays on the hardness of the imaginary "must" - given that this has happened, and that this has happened, and given that this character is struggling with this sort of thing while this other character is driven by that sort of thing, it must be the case that the fiction includes, or resolves as, such-and-such. But that is how the RPGing that I am talking about works.

The key to the difference from your #3 is that (i) there are multiple participants, each of whom has distinct duties and distinct permissions when it comes to introducing content into the shared fiction, and (ii) there are procedures which means that no single participant is guaranteed to be able to introduce whatever they want into the fiction, even within the scope of their role.
 


No, it’s just pointing out similarities that you yourself have acknowledged, and how those similarities may conflict with other things you’ve said.

But that’s just my take. Like, I honestly don’t see railroading as inherently bad. If the participants are all down for that, cool, who amI to judge.

But you have vociferously pointed out that you are anti-railroad. That you see it as inherently problematic.

To then see you point out how your game is similar to that of the self-proclaimed Master Railroader seems odd. Might be worth looking at.

Again… or not!


Are we back to 'sandbox is really a railroad' ?
 

The immersion and playing your character and all of the experiential qualities of play… those are all present in both styles of play we are talking about. So yes, I agree that they are important… but they are common to both types of games, so they can be set aside for the purpose of comparison.

So what we are left with is the actual process of play. Not how players will feel when they are playing it… you’re bringing that in the try and maintain the mystique of things. But we need to get past the mystique and examine what is being done by the GM and by the players.

The GM has made decisions prior to play. Things like “there are four primary suspects” and “suspect 2 is the culprit”. And also likely things like “suspect 3’s kerchief was found at the scene” and “suspect 4 was overheard talking to the victim and threatening him” and so on.

The players then declare actions for their characters to learn these bits of detail, in the hope of learning enough to draw the correct conclusion.

That’s what play consists of.

Again I wouldn't describe it this way. But you can if you want. Like I said, it isn't like it is not capturing elements, but it also isn't capturing everything. But I am also not very interested in modes of analysis focusing on things like process or play loops because I find them limiting and reductionist. I think they become straight jackets
 

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