GOD RULES: Player's Guide (5e) Kickstarter Pre-Launch Page

[Upper_Krust]

FYI, I found a KS project that uses AI images and is D&D 5e and god related:
Galactic Pantheon: Gods of the Future (5e)

I know I became aware of this because when I type GOD RULES into the Kickstarter Search their book appears ahead of mine - if you can believe it!
https://www.kickstarter.com/project...opular&term=5e&total_hits=5084&category_id=34

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A couple of thoughts:

1. I think they are lying. Based on the preview images I think all of that art is AI generated and, probably, only mildly edited in photoshop. To clarify, I think all of the images they are showing on the KS page are AI generated. What is included in the final book - i have no idea.
2. IMO, this style of AI image looks like it is made by a person more than the "glossy" style that it seems you have gone with.
3. I think #2 allows people to fool themselves that it is largely and artist work an not AI. They are wrong, this is 100% AI (IMO).
4. The KS AI disclosure is at the very bottom of the KS page. If I hadn't expected the art was AI generated, and was thus looking for a disclosure, I would have completely missed that it uses AI art.
5. This is a niche project that has earned almost $10,000 with 10 days to go. I think you can do better!

Well firstly, I wish this person every success with their (presumably) Epic Material (I don't see any stats shown).

Maybe they will revise their gods after they have my God Rules.

1. Hard to tell - some images are clearly AI, others may or may not be (cover images in particular).
2. I have multiple styles in my book (I tried my best to link 1 style to each "dimension" and I picked several different artists with different styles to cover different dimensions).
3. Again, who knows what editing was done; they already admitted AI use - so backers know its not AI Free.
4. As long as they are being honest about using AI I don't see what more they can do. 'Edited in Photoshop' could mean many things. I'm sure I have run the gamut between +1-2 hours all the way to +30 hours or more in terms of editing/fixing/re-painting. As regards a single page of artwork I probably average 5-6 work hours on each.
5. Well fingers crossed I can do okay, but I honestly have no idea at this point - last I checked there were 19 signed up to be notified (after the first 6 of 70 days of the Pre-Launch) but that's all prior to my emailing and Meta Ads marketing - so I am not massively concerned on those numbers 'just yet'.

 

[MazzelDazzle]

I don't want this to become a derail since over half the thread has been the discussion of it but from a consumer standpoint, a few pieces that came with the Immortal's Handbook re-release looks like they're AI adjacent even though they're not so I don't think anyone should be putting you through the ringer.

For the sake of financial success, if any, it's a bad idea. Still, this situation just harkens back to that one animator who did the Scooby-Doo/Springtrap animation and got chewed out for using AI voices for lack of budget. There is SO MUCH hard work and legitimate effort put into this project that anyone who refuses to support the book finally coming into existence by whatever means necessary is someone who isn't worth their contribution.

We're selling and buying TTRPG supplement books here, not missiles. Slop is being produced every day. The conceptual fear of "hurting" or "stealing" from artists is bull because you've paid more than your pound of flesh. You commissioned so much of the book legitimately and if the finish line needs some budgetary decisions, so be it.

 

[Dire Bare]

I'm excited for your long gestating project to finally come to light . . .

But I'm one who won't be backing if AI generated art is used in the book. It's not that YOU are stealing an artist's work, it's that you would be participating in a technology that is based on scraping artists work without their knowledge, permission, or compensation. Can't respect or support that mate.

If you launch with an AI-free version, blank or sketch, I'll probably back. If you work on raising funds to fund more human-generated art as Steampunkette did, I'll probably back. But either way, if the main product uses AI-art, even with alternative versions, I'll be hesitant.

I understand the position you feel you are in, but . . . you are not "backed into a corner" on this. That's just a way to justify participating in an unethical industry, the use of AI-generated art.

You have options. You could simply use less art. You could scale back the project, start with something smaller. You could delay the project or extend your timeline.

If you go forward using AI-generated art, will you hit your funding goal? Hard to say, the AI-slop project @dave2008 linked to seems to be funding. There are a lot of us highly opposed to the use of AI-generated art, but there are also those who will overlook it's use. It seems the smaller you are, the less of a problem it might present. Big companies like WotC and Paizo simply cannot get away with it. It certainly won't be a good way to launch a career in RPG production. Is "God Rules" a one-and-done? Or is this hopefully the beginning of Upper Krust Game Studios?

Good luck, I hope I can back the project when it launches.

 

[Distracted DM]

I'd rather have sketch art than AI. I don't know how much weight one (or a dozen) voices should have here, over however many folks you get from social media etc, but I really avoid AI art stuff in products when possible.
I've said the same to a couple patreon mapmakers that have used midjourney etc. to create "vibe" scenes for their maps: you gotta do you, but I'm not in favor of it. There are people passing off "touched up" AI-schlock battlemaps... gotta draw the line somewhere; using AI art to make scenes for your battlemaps.. sooner than later folk are gonna drift towards those 10,000+ Amazing Battlemaps for $30! over your $10/mo for 4 hand-drawn maps.

Anyway, tangent. I was looking forward to this.. but AI art makes me hesitate backing it.
edit: Rereading, I see that you're looking at doing an AI version, and a sketch art-version. Fine idea! I'd be curious to see which gets more orders. My limited experience is that most folk think AI art looks cool at first glance.. and they don't look at it further. So they think it's good! They don't really look deeper. Which makes me sad.

 

[Upper_Krust]

I don't want this to become a derail since over half the thread has been the discussion of it but from a consumer standpoint, a few pieces that came with the Immortal's Handbook re-release looks like they're AI adjacent even though they're not so I don't think anyone should be putting you through the ringer.

For the sake of financial success, if any, it's a bad idea. Still, this situation just harkens back to that one animator who did the Scooby-Doo/Springtrap animation and got chewed out for using AI voices for lack of budget. There is SO MUCH hard work and legitimate effort put into this project that anyone who refuses to support the book finally coming into existence by whatever means necessary is someone who isn't worth their contribution.

We're selling and buying TTRPG supplement books here, not missiles. Slop is being produced every day. The conceptual fear of "hurting" or "stealing" from artists is naughty word because you've paid more than your pound of flesh. You commissioned so much of the book legitimately and if the finish line needs some budgetary decisions, so be it.

I appreciate the kind words amigo. Just a case of over-ambition getting the best of me and bad planning on the art budget side of things.

 

[Upper_Krust]

I'm excited for your long gestating project to finally come to light .

Thank you - been long 5 years of work, I hope people will like it.

. .But I'm one who won't be backing if AI generated art is used in the book. It's not that YOU are stealing an artist's work, it's that you would be participating in a technology that is based on scraping artists work without their knowledge, permission, or compensation. Can't respect or support that mate.

Understandable - I haven't updated the Pre-Launch yet (will get to that shortly) but...

I will be using Stretch Goals to replace AI art with more commissioned art from Real Artists in the book.

If you launch with an AI-free version, blank or sketch, I'll probably back. If you work on raising funds to fund more human-generated art as Steampunkette did, I'll probably back. But either way, if the main product uses AI-art, even with alternative versions, I'll be hesitant.

As noted above I will be offering a Steampunkette style solution of Stretch Goals to replace AI Art.

I'm still looking at the pricing for an Artists Sketch Edition to offer a completely AI Free version. But the big issue here is being able to promise that version from the start, spending even more money (that I can no longer afford) and then the Kickstarter not getting funded enough to even pay that back - if you can understand.

If I knew now the book would hit £25,000+ then I wouldn't hesitate to include such a version. Indeed I'm happy to add that as a Stretch Goal.

The Catch 22 is this: Would you (or anyone preferring an AI Free version) back a project that includes some* AI art to fund a version with zero AI art?

*Even though many artists were already paid a lot of money.

I understand the position you feel you are in, but . . . you are not "backed into a corner" on this. That's just a way to justify participating in an unethical industry, the use of AI-generated art.

I agree, but its no exaggeration when I say I have spent over a thousand hours re-painting the AI art by my hand - in a bunch of cases I am probably spending more time working on an illustration than an artist would have painting it from scratch.

You have options. You could simply use less art. You could scale back the project, start with something smaller. You could delay the project or extend your timeline.

I'm happy to listen to everyone's opinions.

• A Blank Edition (with zero art) does not impact me financially - I can offer that.
• A Hybrid Blank/Real Art Edition I just think will look like a bit of a 'dog's dinner' - I'm not convinced that's a good idea.
• An Artists Sketch Edition, I really like the idea of, but would probably only be feasible if the funding reaches £25,000+...remembering of course I'll still be replacing AI art with Stretch Goals long before that target is reached if I am using the Steampunkette solution.

If you go forward using AI-generated art, will you hit your funding goal?

Well my funding goal is £100 so I would like to think I'll get 4 backers...of course that total does not pay for the spent Art Budget let alone make a profit - but I want to get the book out there EVEN if I don't make a profit, that's how passionately I feel about it.

Hard to say, the AI-slop project @dave2008 linked to seems to be funding. There are a lot of us highly opposed to the use of AI-generated art, but there are also those who will overlook it's use. It seems the smaller you are, the less of a problem it might present.

Well it doesn't get much smaller than 1 person doing 'basically' everything - albeit there were a dozen contributing artists (and even then I sketched out the layout for every commissioned illustration).

Big companies like WotC and Paizo simply cannot get away with it. It certainly won't be a good way to launch a career in RPG production.

That career started in 2002.

s "God Rules" a one-and-done? Or is this hopefully the beginning of Upper Krust Game Studios?

Its the start of a 5e line of Epic/Immortal themed books.

Good luck, I hope I can back the project when it launches.

I appreciate your honesty and civility discussing the matter. I hope I can offer an option that will have you support the project.

 

[MazzelDazzle]

My limited experience is that most folk think AI art looks cool at first glance.. and they don't look at it further. So they think it's good! They don't really look deeper. Which makes me sad.

I think the context of the book does a lot of heavy lifting in this example. I'm a bit of an outlier perhaps, but I simply can't imagine most people are going to use an Epic Rules Player Guide as a picture book and revisit the illustrations often. It's very kind of U_K to give us art at all but the meat of the book will be text, and if I'm cooking up gods and stories, my imagination is prioritized over picture examples from a book.

 

[Upper_Krust]

I'd rather have sketch art than AI. I don't know how much weight one (or a dozen) voices should have here, over however many folks you get from social media etc, but I really avoid AI art stuff in products when possible.

I just thought of something how about this idea:

1. I'll offer a Blank Edition (with no art).
2. If the Kickstarter reaches £25,000 I will use that money to create the Artists Sketch Edition (which will cost about £2500 now that I have it properly priced).
3. Anyone who backed the Blank Edition will get the Artists Sketch Edition - if that goal is reached - otherwise they get the Blank Edition: call it a leap of faith.

How does that sound?

I've said the same to a couple patreon mapmakers that have used midjourney etc. to create "vibe" scenes for their maps: you gotta do you, but I'm not in favor of it. There are people passing off "touched up" AI-schlock battlemaps... gotta draw the line somewhere; using AI art to make scenes for your battlemaps.. sooner than later folk are gonna drift towards those 10,000+ Amazing Battlemaps for $30! over your $10/mo for 4 hand-drawn maps.

Its going to be interesting to see how it all plays out over the next few years - I can maybe see more artists doing their own books. I'm a 'journeyman' artist but my problem is I'm incredibly slow at it.

Anyway, tangent. I was looking forward to this.. but AI art makes me hesitate backing it.
edit: Rereading, I see that you're looking at doing an AI version, and a sketch art-version. Fine idea! I'd be curious to see which gets more orders. My limited experience is that most folk think AI art looks cool at first glance.. and they don't look at it further. So they think it's good! They don't really look deeper. Which makes me sad.

I think virtually all my AI art pieces have had extensive re-painting and reworking of an average of 5-6 hours work, up to 30+ hours in some cases.

 

[Upper_Krust]

I think the context of the book does a lot of heavy lifting in this example. I'm a bit of an outlier perhaps, but I simply can't imagine most people are going to use an Epic Rules Player Guide as a picture book and revisit the illustrations often. It's very kind of U_K to give us art at all but the meat of the book will be text, and if I'm cooking up gods and stories, my imagination is prioritized over picture examples from a book.

Well I hope I can convince you otherwise amigo, with both the art by real artists and (for those not averse to it) my humble AI-base 'Repaintings'.

I think while imagination is king, if you can 'spark' that imagination - especially if you are showing (for the first time) a new plane or dimension, or some weird higher-dimensional god or monster, then that is half the battle in getting your vision across - their imagination can take that headstart and run with it.

After all...a picture is worth a thousand words.

 

[Distracted DM]

I think the context of the book does a lot of heavy lifting in this example. I'm a bit of an outlier perhaps, but I simply can't imagine most people are going to use an Epic Rules Player Guide as a picture book and revisit the illustrations often. It's very kind of U_K to give us art at all but the meat of the book will be text, and if I'm cooking up gods and stories, my imagination is prioritized over picture examples from a book.

Presentation matters; it's part of design.
You could be an outlier, or not- lots of folk will say "just give me the text, it doesn't have to be pretty!" buuut that tends not to be the reality, despite what they think they want.

Ofc AI art can translate a vibe just fine, which is often what the ttrpg book art is for ... Atmosphere and inspiration. But my objection is a moral one, not a practical one.