D&D 5E (2024) Circle Casting is gonna break a lot of games

[Libertad]

Make circle casting cost a feat.
Or a level requirement to support a particular spell level.

Its an interesting framework....How would you solve it?

Run a short adventure arc where everyone's a spellcaster in the Forgotten Realms, embrace the craziest aspects of Realmslore and lean in heavily to the high-power, high-magic nature of the setting. Make them leaders of armies fighting against a Thayan invasion, or devils, or some other BBEG force.

Encourage the PCs to go nuts and revel in the chaos, see what works and what breaks horribly. Decide whether or not you'll use Circle Casting as-is, ban it, or allow it but with conditions.

That way, you can technically "allow" it but in a controlled environment that plays into a (rather stereotyped) idea of what many gamers imagine the Forgotten Realms to be and let the PCs be the OP archmages wreaking armies for a change.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Not to overgeneralize, but I've seen that older gamers (like us) are used to houseruling and ignoring rules because AD&D was such a rules mess. But I have seen, quite often, "newer" (3e and on) players rely more on the rules than be willing to just houserule away things they don't like. I don't have evidence, but I'd posit that the clearer rules are for a game, the more people will try to follow them. Not just RPGs, but boadgames and other games as well. And then you've got things like AL where you can't just houserule away rules.

Having online characters makes house ruling harder.

I for example increase upcast damage of spells and use auto upcast. Since I can't change the damage numbers on those spells on dndbeyond, my players need to remember how many dice to roll extra.

 

[Thommy H-H]

Some of these situations being described...man, it's like you're allergic to fun.

Let's say the party wants to solve their problems using circle casting to pull off One Big Spell (1BS). They don't have enough casters in the party itself, but any kind of caster counts, right? So they can just hire some low-CR NPCs. Okay, from where? Because they're currently in the wilderness contemplating the huge problem bearing down on them that only the 1BS can solve.

I'm the DM. I check my map, and the nearest village is 20 miles away and has a population of about 150. I'll be generous and 'yes, and' the players and allow that there's a small shrine to Lathander there which is maintained by an elderly curate (Priest Acolyte). Of course, they don't know that unless they go there (or does someone know the region well enough already? Give me a History check...). And even when they get there, the curate may be unwilling or unable to help. Or perhaps they demand the party help out with some local problem first. They can magically coerece or abduct the curate, of course, but I would imagine there'll be some consequences for that! So that gets them one hireling towards the 1BS. Still a way to go! Oh, but the curate knows a monastery 20 miles in the other direction where there are loads of Priest Acolytes. Let's go there! But actually the monastery has been secretly infiltrated by cultists of the Dead Three, and they've walked into a trap...

Maybe divine casters aren't the way to go. The party knows Candlekeep, and they're high enough level to teleport there. There are probably hundreds of Mage Apprentices there that will hire themselves out. Okay, do you have a rare book to let you get in? Hm. Better go find one first. Or break in? To Candlekeep? Sure, that could be a fun couple of sessions...

Druids? How's your standing with the Emerald Enclave?

I think you see where I'm going. At the point in the game where the 1BS is being contemplated, the issue isn't whether it's possible; it's what doing it costs in terms of time and effort. I wouldn't throw up roadblocks like that to shut my group down: I'd do it to generate more adventures. Finding hirelings to cast the 1BS is an adventure in itself! As DM, it's your job to make these kinds of scenarios into meaningful challenges. Don't let your players circumvent the logistics - turn them into a side-quest.

From what I can see, that's the whole idea behind circle casting. If you look at the new spells in the book, their circle casting versions have Material components that are unique or legendary items. Stuff you have to find on other Planes or take from powerful enemies. Things you go on a quest to find. The "cost" of circle casting is that you have to jump through hoops to assemble the things you need. Find a macguffin, break into Candlekeep, plunder a dragon's horde, scour the countryside for every minor healer and hedge wizard you can round up and, in doing so, unite the region under your banner.

Circle casting doesn't break your game: it makes it. It might give you a whole extra narrative arc before the actual finale, where the party has to cast the 1BS while hordes of enemies try to kill their fragile little hirelings that they've now become quite attached to because you gave them all funny voices.

 

[Sulicius]

Please point to where I said one should only listen to optimizers.

C'mon man, you started quoting my posts when I was talking about that subject. I am not saying you said that.

This is going nowhere.

 

[Sacrosanct]

You’ve had your answer do as you will, you were handed a branch to hold onto to pull you out. If you choose not to grab on that’s your call.

I'm sorry, what? I'm quoting the rules as written. 5e is very intentional on how they word things. So when they word one rule as "area" and another "range", you can't just swap them because it makes more sense to you. That's not an answer. That's you ignoring how rules are actually worded. If one rule says "range is increased by 1000 feet per helper" and another says "area of effect is increased by 10 feet by helper", and the spells states you can do x within range, that means the former, not the latter. Quite clearly in fact.

Ignoring it and being condescending about it isn't helping.

I really do suggest you consider going for a walk though. Look around and see how far you can actually see the ground in every direction.

I know I can see more than two blocks down the street. Also, folks seem to be mistaken on just how close 1000 feet is, thinking it's further than it is. As I mentioned earlier, 300 m (nearly 1000 feet) is a routine open-sight target on the range for a human sized target. You obviously would need to see it in order to be an eligible target.

I've actually flown NAP of the earth many times during my time flying Black Hawk helicopters. You can't just go full speed and suddenly swoop down below trees. And a huge object doesn't just disappear where no one can see it any longer, especially when moving. The terrain would have to be absolutely perfect for that to happen. The chances of the terrain being able to completely hide a huge moving object unit it gets within 50 feet are extremely slim. I say 50 feet, because in order to obscure something that large, no way it could be dashing in a straight line.

For context, this is about 1500 feet. The argument that you couldn't see someone standing from one end of the park to the other is bonkers.

This is an issue with something like a dragon actually covering 100 meters in a second "in real life" but D&D has their movement rate set at 160 feet per round if they dash. 1000 feet is not that far in real life, but because of how D&D structures time and rounds, you can get off a half dozen attacks before the dragon could close range.

Looking at the map of Greenrest, it's about 1000 feet from one end to the other. (ignore how the scale is wonkers, because according to this scale, even the larger buildings are 15 feet by 50 feet. For reference, that's only 750 sq feet, or a very small house. Most 80s 1 story ranch homes are double that. But fantasy maps almost always put the scale twice as large as it should be, but I digress). A dragon, or army, or anything else moving through the city will be spotted from a good distance away.

 

[Charlaquin]

Now that I have the book and have read the section, here’s my take.

Can this system be exploited to do some pretty broken stuff? Absolutely. Is it going to be a problem at some tables? Most likely. Is it going to be a problem at most tables? Probably not. Is it going to be a problem at my table? Maybe, but I don’t think so.

Regarding what this does to worldbuilding… Honestly, the kind of magic that exists in D&D already completely destroys any possibility of a medieval-esque society. Eberron is what a setting that takes D&D’s magic seriously as an element of worldbuilding looks like. If you’re comfortable hand waving the impact of magic on your setting of choice, or have a workaround like making the most world-altering magic incredibly rare, I’d say just keep doing that with circle casting.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Some of these situations being described...man, it's like you're allergic to fun.

Let's say the party wants to solve their problems using circle casting to pull off One Big Spell (1BS). They don't have enough casters in the party itself, but any kind of caster counts, right? So they can just hire some low-CR NPCs. Okay, from where? Because they're currently in the wilderness contemplating the huge problem bearing down on them that only the 1BS can solve.

There are 8 core classes with spellcasting. More if you count subclasses. There isn't going to be a need to hire an NPC in most cases to get 1-3 helpers. In 5e, most classes can cast spells, even some fighters and rogues.

 

[Thommy H-H]

There are 8 core classes with spellcasting. More if you count subclasses. There isn't going to be a need to hire an NPC in most cases to get 1-3 helpers. In 5e, most classes can cast spells, even some fighters and rogues.

Yes, but the game-breaking versions of the spells being discussed (not just boosting Fireball's radius to 40 feet or something) require a larger group than the average party can muster, even if everyone is a spellcaster.

 

[Bae'zel]

This all just cements my determination to follow the new Forgotten Realms GM advice and keep levelled Class characters a rarity.

Eg, there may be a priest in every town, village and neighborhood, but an actual Cleric is rare. There may be a minor spellcaster with cantrips here and there, but actual Wizards and Sorcerors are scarce and legendary.

It might go against some portrayals of the Forgotten Realms, but I like it better this way.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Yes, but the game-breaking versions of the spells being discussed (not just boosting Fireball's radius to 40 feet or something) require a larger group than the average party can muster, even if everyone is a spellcaster.

No they are not. In fact, the most common example is the range extending issue, which only requires one additional caster. Earth tremor to wipe out all low level creatures only requires 1. A 35-ft radius spirit guardians only requires 2. Nearly unbreakable concentration only requires 2-3. Etc. Only the 24 hour long spells requires several, but that's just one part of the issue. All the other issues do not require more than 1-3 helpers.