D&D General Mike Mearls says control spells are ruining 5th Edition

[pemerton]

I wager that high level D&,D is always designed as an afterthought and thus poorly.

I've GMed a lot of, and played a bit of, high level FRPGing - AD&D, Rolemaster, 4e D&D.

4e D&D worked well, and to me it seemed pretty well designed. There is a fairly clear progression of effects, eg from slow or prone on Heroic tier encounter powers to Dominate on an upper Epic tier encounter power. Epic destinies establish a clear logic and place in the world for high level PCs.

The high level NPCs and creatures in the MMs were a bit underdone, at least for my group, but I didn't find it overly much work to build variants that had a bit more condition removal/avoidance (using creatures like the MV dragons, and hydras, as inspiration) but didn't simply shut down the players' successful abilities.

I did use the full suite of tools in the 4e toolbox: for combat, I liberally used minions and swarms to reflect low level NPCs/creatures; in skill challenges, I established fiction and stakes that matched the tiers of play - eg no epic tier PCs haggling with tavern keepers over the price of a meal.

I am sure if someone can figure out how to make a simple but high power fantasy RPG, it would sell well

You can't make a FRPG simple, yet high power, and stick to D&D conventions for how actions are declared and resolved, how combat is handled, etc.

A game like Agon 2e is simple, and can be high-powered. But it completely avoids all the D&D-isms. Its play is almost nothing like a wargame.

 

[Minigiant]

What if

Attack roll spell were more common and assumed to have a high chance of success due to targeting a rarely increasing AC but having milder or straightforward effects being the Boss Beaters.

But...

Saving throws spells being very successful vs low CR/Lvl targets and poor vs high CR/LR targets but having AOE or Recursion making the Minion Moppers

And

No Attack, No Save auto effect spells being a middle ground where the damage or effect is too mild for bosses and the usage is too unwieldily to use on weak targets to be a middle ground as Elite Eliminaters

No Attack/No Save spells vs Elites
Attack Roll spells vs Bosses
Saving Throw spells vs Mooks
Both Attack and Save vs Standard Monsters

 

[Minigiant]

You can't make a FRPG simple, yet high power, and stick to D&D conventions for how actions are declared and resolved, how combat is handled, etc.

A game like Agon 2e is simple, and can be high-powered. But it completely avoids all the D&D-isms. It's play is almost nothing like a wargame.

I don't see it as impossible

The part that makes the entire thing complex is not the high power stuff is all the low power stuff you still have and have to account for.

Playing high level D&D in a manner that is simple would be much like running a high CR archmage. You don't care about the low level spells and thus don't put those on your sheet.

You could create a system where the low level abilities fade into the background as passive features that you simply add to your base passive aspects like AC and speeds.

 

[AnotherGuy]

The part that makes the entire thing complex is not the high power stuff is all the low power stuff you still have and have to account for.

Playing high level D&D in a manner that is simple would be much like running a high CR archmage. You don't care about the low level spells and thus don't put those on your sheet.

You could create a system where the low level abilities fade into the background as passive features that you simply add to your base passive aspects like AC and speeds.

I share this exact idea for how high level should play - not that I currently have any solutions myself.
My table is 16th level - the idea I have for my table to take it as far as we can go as I have high level ideas I wish to explore, of course the system might make this impossible.

@Upper_Krust is busy designing high-level and post-20th material. My intention is, as you said, to fade the lower-level features into the background and simplify the character sheet. Focus on what is pertinent and ensure that combat is not a grind so that we can move through storyline quickly.

 

[pemerton]

You could create a system where the low level abilities fade into the background as passive features that you simply add to your base passive aspects like AC and speeds.

But this isn't simple. You're describing fairly complicated PC build rules.

What if

Attack roll spell were more common and assumed to have a high chance of success due to targeting a rarely increasing AC but having milder or straightforward effects being the Boss Beaters.

But...

Saving throws spells being very successful vs low CR/Lvl targets and poor vs high CR/LR targets but having AOE or Recursion making the Minion Moppers

And

No Attack, No Save auto effect spells being a middle ground where the damage or effect is too mild for bosses and the usage is too unwieldily to use on weak targets to be a middle ground as Elite Eliminaters

No Attack/No Save spells vs Elites
Attack Roll spells vs Bosses
Saving Throw spells vs Mooks
Both Attack and Save vs Standard Monsters

I can see what you're trying to do. But I'm not persuaded the maths can actually work.

4e did it by using more parameters than just DCs. It uses condition resistance, condition mitigation, action economy manipulation (eg the MV dragons), etc.

This works (in my view, and allowing for modifications to match the skill of the group - see my post not far upthread). But it's not simple.

 

[Minigiant]

But this isn't simple. You're describing fairly complicated PC build rules.

Not really.

It's really just a simpler version of 13th Age or DH. You just replace lower level stuff with higher level stuff. With AD&D style save charts.

Or like a simpler version of 4e Essentials. High level 4.5e worked pretty good.

 

[AnotherGuy]

Not really.

It's really just a simpler version of 13th Age or DH. You just replace lower level stuff with higher level stuff. With AD&D style save charts.

Or like a simpler version of 4e Essentials. High level 4.5e worked pretty good.

Ah you're converting the many lower-level spells slots to higher level spells?
So, 4 x level 1 spell slots = 1 x level 4 spell slot?
You can find a way to limit spell slots, for instance Level+x or Intelligence ...etc

I'm assuming Fighters remain the same, so you wouldn't be removing Action Surge, Second Wind and Combat Maneuvers for example

...and so on?

 

[Minigiant]

Ah you're converting the many lower-level spells slots to higher level spells?
So, 4 x level 1 spell slots = 1 x level 4 spell slot?
You can find a way to limit spell slots, for instance Level+x or Intelligence ...etc

I'm assuming Fighters remain the same, so you wouldn't be removing Action Surge, Second Wind and Combat Maneuvers for example

...and so on?

I'm more like you get X slots for spells, feats, proficiencies, and class features.

As you level you trade out the lower level stuff for higher level stuff.

You trade Shield Spell for Cone of Cold or +INT to AC.

 

[AnotherGuy]

I'm more like you get X slots for spells, feats, proficiencies, and class features.
As you level you trade out the lower level stuff for higher level stuff.

So,

OPTION 1
11 - Level 1 is traded out
12 - Level 2 is traded out
...etc

OPTION 2
17 - Levels 1-4 are traded out
18 - Levels 5-6 are traded out
19 - Levels 7-8 are traded out
20 - Levels 9-10 are traded out

OPTION 3a and 3b
20/21 - Levels 1-4 are traded out
21/22 - Levels 5-6 are traded out
22/23 - Levels 7-8 are traded out
23/24 - Levels 9-10 are traded out

I'm probably going to do option 2, since our characters are 16th level already.
And the intention is to advance beyond 20th effectively.

EDIT: Multiclassing is where it gets tricky.
You may decide you can only have 10 or 15 levels in a class before trading out

 

[Minigiant]

So,

OPTION 1
11 - Level 1 is traded out
12 - Level 2 is traded out
...etc

OPTION 2
17 - Levels 1-4 are traded out
18 - Levels 5-6 are traded out
19 - Levels 7-8 are traded out
20 - Levels 9-10 are traded out

OPTION 3a and 3b
20/21 - Levels 1-4 are traded out
21/22 - Levels 5-6 are traded out
22/23 - Levels 7-8 are traded out
23/24 - Levels 9-10 are traded out

I'm probably going to do option 2, since our characters are 16th level already.
And the intention is to advance beyond 20th effectively.

EDIT: Multiclassing is where it gets tricky.
You may decide you can only have 10 or 15 levels in a class before trading out

Option 2.

Multiclassing is balanced by Ability score requirements and weaker saves (saving throws from class don't stack).