Netheril's Fall - First Impressions

If Astarion's Book of Hungers is the player-facing add-on for Heroes of Faerun, than Netheril's Fall is the slightly more beefy add-on for Adventures in Faerun. The new digital "DLC" for the Forgotten Realms book is a gazetteer for the lost kingdom of Netheril, with an overview of the fallen kingdom, a look at two of its cities (one flying city, Eileanar, and the landbound city Conch), some magically-themed environmental hazards, and a short collection of mini-adventures in the style of the Dungeon Master's Guide. Netheril's Fall is functionally a mini-gazetteer, albeit not quite as beefy as the five gazetteers found in Adventures in Faerun that detail various regions.

At first glance, it's easy to see why Netheril's Fall wasn't included in Adventures in Faerun. Netheril is a fallen empire and having an adventure in Netheril will likely require the use of time gates (which are conveniently explained in the supplement, with two adventures dedicated to traveling and crossing through a Time Gate. I'll note that the adventures in this book feel much more specific than what we saw in Adventures in Faerun or the 2024 Dungeon Master's Guide. While the adventures in other books could be "plugged" into any level-appropriate campaign, these adventures feel much more narrow in scope and cover specific locations or events found in the DLC. There's a few adventures in Adventures in Faerun that cover locales seen in the gazetteer, but there aren't very many that cover a specific event. I don't mind the "one page adventure" format, but I'm not sure it works with every adventure type. If an adventure sends players into a mad wizard's attempted ascent into godhood, I want a little more meat than a few encounters and a resolution of "well, the players will have time to explore the city before the ritual fails."

Another criticism I have of Netheril's Fall is that Netheril doesn't feel nearly as fantastical as an ancient high-magic society should. Given that Adventures in Faerun did a very find job of elevating the Forgotten Realms beyond its generic high fantasy trappings, I feel like a bit more care could have really sold Netheril as more fantastical in nature than what we got. If we could have gotten a few more pages about Netheril's culture, I feel like Netheril would have been more appealing as a place that DMs would want to incorporate into their campaigns. As presented, there are a few cool ideas, but even the phaerimm (one of my favorite D&D monsters) feel a bit flat compared to what we would have gotten.

I was critical of Astarion's Book of Hunger's price point, and while I feel that $15 is still too high for Netheril's Fall, there's a lot more "content" compared to that book. Generally speaking, some adventure content, a gazetteer, and some monster statblocks is probably a bit more valuable than one new species and a collection of feats, although I'm probably a bit biased towards DM content since I'm usually the one behind the DM screen. I personally would had preferred a $10 price point for this DLC, but others may feel that the price point of these are more fair.

All in all, I feel a bit underwhelmed by Netheril's Fall. Netheril seems like a very cool part of Forgotten Realms lore, but it's not given full justice here. I know there's some other Netheril content out there from past editions, and I encourage people to check those out on DMs Guild if they want a real deep dive into this lost empire.

 

[Zardnaar]

There are elven towns and villages all over the place. Hell, there were elves living in Netheril up until the fall in multiple towns/cities. You're vastly overestimating the amount of lost knowledge. Elves lose cities, but the knowledge is much harder for them to lose.

You don't need a full elven country like you are implying.

You are absolutely correct. It's easier to find them. There are a lot of elven ruins where Baelnorn dwell, and you don't need a 1 in a million book to get inside to see them. Just a bit of luck or skill.

Why would you need to access the Nether Scrolls? We're talking history here, not uber magical spells.

I'm not claiming Elves know nothing.

Everska would be your best shot. Its reclusive and hard to get to. It was contemporary but hidden in Netherils time.Candlekeep is down the road from Baldurs Gate. You can pay a fee to read or transcribe their books.

Netherils reasonably well known but if you want the realky obscure stuff eg internal workings of the empire you probably have to go to Candlekeep or track down the Terraseer, Ioulaum, Aumvor, Tabra etc.

 

[evildmguy]

@Zardnaar, @Maxperson, this is a pointless argument because at the heart of the nature of rpgs in general and D&D is that both point of views are supported and valid. There is no correct way to build a world and if the people are writing the setting are doing their job it should be possible to build very different worlds from the same base of information.
Now, I also realize that you may be having a lore argument and enjoying it, and have at it but I wanted to add that point.

I agree! I hope all involved are having a fun discussion! I know I'm enjoying it!

One of the things that irritates me about Netheril, is it's sort of presented like this big legendary culture of the distant past...but it only ended and had those floating cities come down about a thousand years before the current couple of centuries (depending on edition).

When I first heard about it, I was imagining ancient Sumeria or a Hyborian Age, but it's only as ancient to them as the Middle Ages to us, or as ancient as the Roman Empire to the Middle Ages! And that's assuming a human view of things! In the Forgotten Realms, with all the elves, and dwarves, and half-elves, it's going to seem even more recent.

I feel like that's where the real dropping of the ball was when they first came up with the idea decades ago. They needed to set this stuff -9,000 DR or something to really get the feel right.

So if they didn't make it any more fantastic that the currently super-fantasticated FR in this supplement? Maybe they just noticed the date and tried to be consistent. :shrugs:

But that's what it's equivalent to for elves. The point is, Netheril is the recent past, not the distant and forgotten past. It's history, not myth.

Illefarn is much more your typical lost civilisation. Far enough in the past that it's passed beyond history into legend.

I originally posted to this thread due to these two. I'm not calling them out or anything else. I'm merely saying that they were what inspired me to post to the thread, so thanks!

Going back to my posts, I wanted to point out that in canon, Netheril is treated as myth and legend to the average human commoner. I love the discussion we are having on elves and what they would know.

It's also worth mentionning that I feel the highly magical FR has better means of preserving information than our middle ages, briding the gap with Netheril better than it would be between the fall of Rome and us.

I completely agree! In my own world, Netheril had magical tomes that used illusions to create a work area. Think of a VR space for spells. It might be vellum or a metal disk where the illusion pops out and the wizard can "flip" through topics and store things in a 3D space, instead of 2D. Maybe even 4D?

Going back to the DLC itself, I have to say, I'm not interested as I read about it. As someone else said, I don't wants Netheril to be "today but more so!" That's me, though. I want them to be very different and show that something was lost when Netheril fell. That there are parts of Netheril that were cool and worth examining and bringing back.

I think it's too easy for me to discount the "because elves." They live longer, have better memories, and are kewl. They are the vulcans to the humans. Elves had their chance at an empire in FR and it fell. Now it's humans turn. (Insert Star Trek VI. "They are dying." "Let them die!")

I don't like long lived races/species/ancestries in RPGs because for the duration that they are played that I have seen, the potential doesn't matter to the adventure at hand. I think it's tough to play a character that wants to think about things and ponder them from several angles before committing to an action. How did they get anything done? I get that to elves, humans must look as the orcs look to humans. These fast breeding, cretins that can't controls themselves and think they deserve the land. When everyone has to react to the one going the fastest, they all tend to start looking same-y after a while.

Thanks for the discussion!

 

[Maxperson]

I'm not claiming Elves know nothing.

Everska would be your best shot. Its reclusive and hard to get to. It was contemporary but hidden in Netherils time.Candlekeep is down the road from Baldurs Gate. You can pay a fee to read or transcribe their books.

Netherils reasonably well known but if you want the realky obscure stuff eg internal workings of the empire you probably have to go to Candlekeep or track down the Terraseer, Ioulaum, Aumvor, Tabra etc.

Or any of the many, many elves who lived there for the entire time Netheril existed and wrote it down.

 

[evildmguy]

Or any of the many, many elves who lived there for the entire time Netheril existed and wrote it down.

Even if you accept the 1E DMG of 2000 years max for an elf, Netheril lasted much longer. No natural elf could have seen all of it.

Can I ask where this optimism comes from? That elves all live to the max potential age, perfectly remember everything AND write it down? And share it with others? Forgotten Realms fandom site, which is well researched, has FR elves at 750 years on average. (Elf)

Personally, that max age is too high for me. I think I capped elves at 500 max, 225 average. Dwarves are 350 max, 150 average. Gnomes, halflings, and half-elves are the same as human.

As a point of contention, if elves can remember things perfectly and from other elves, if you are accepting MToF, then why would they need to write anything down? If the ones that experience it tell others how it happened, from their perfect memory, there is no need for writing. That would be interesting, that elves don't have writing and everything is an oral tradition! They scorn humans for needing to write things down!

Everska would be your best shot. Its reclusive and hard to get to. It was contemporary but hidden in Netherils time.Candlekeep is down the road from Baldurs Gate. You can pay a fee to read or transcribe their books.

Netherils reasonably well known but if you want the realky obscure stuff eg internal workings of the empire you probably have to go to Candlekeep or track down the Terraseer, Ioulaum, Aumvor, Tabra etc.

My understanding is that Candlekeep isn't a typical library, to go borrow the book or read it there. It's for the rich or collectors who can hand over a volume that Candlekeep doesn't have or pay an entrance fee. (Candlekeep) That says you need a letter of recommendation AND a unique tome worth at least 1000gp. It later says that as of 1494 DR, it has relaxed and anything it doesn't have might be accepted. That's quite the change. I agree Candlekeep probably has extensive information on Netheril. I don't think many have read it or know it's there.

Nether scrolls were in Myth Drannor. Once again not easy to access.

It would seem the Netherese only had the full set of Nether Scrolls for 400 years, which was still long enough to create their empire that lasted another 3000 years. From that point forward, it seems no one has allowed the Nether Scrolls to come together. Probably a good idea.

While the Nether Scrolls have all of the theories of magic laid out in them (and item creation, and the planes, and artifacts, etc.), there really doesn't seem to be anything useful in a game about them, as I have seen them described. It's like they are the encyclopedia set of magic. That information is already out there by current day FR, grey boxed set to current. The wizard class, and its sub classes, are the sum total of what the Nether Scrolls gave to the world. What might be interesting is if the Nether Scrolls contain the forbidden high level spells, like Karsus' spell, and with the scrolls, allows them to be cast, regardless of Mystra's ban. That would be a reason to keep them away from everyone! It would also be interesting if the scrolls touched on sorcerers or spellfire users. Nothing I'm finding says they do. Maybe a new find in current day that wasn't around for Netheril? Of course, the arcanists of Netheril would probably not be amused by sorcerers or spellfire wielders.

Thanks for the discussion!

 

[Zardnaar]

Even if you accept the 1E DMG of 2000 years max for an elf, Netheril lasted much longer. No natural elf could have seen all of it.

Can I ask where this optimism comes from? That elves all live to the max potential age, perfectly remember everything AND write it down? And share it with others? Forgotten Realms fandom site, which is well researched, has FR elves at 750 years on average. (Elf)

Personally, that max age is too high for me. I think I capped elves at 500 max, 225 average. Dwarves are 350 max, 150 average. Gnomes, halflings, and half-elves are the same as human.

As a point of contention, if elves can remember things perfectly and from other elves, if you are accepting MToF, then why would they need to write anything down? If the ones that experience it tell others how it happened, from their perfect memory, there is no need for writing. That would be interesting, that elves don't have writing and everything is an oral tradition! They scorn humans for needing to write things down!


My understanding is that Candlekeep isn't a typical library, to go borrow the book or read it there. It's for the rich or collectors who can hand over a volume that Candlekeep doesn't have or pay an entrance fee. (Candlekeep) That says you need a letter of recommendation AND a unique tome worth at least 1000gp. It later says that as of 1494 DR, it has relaxed and anything it doesn't have might be accepted. That's quite the change. I agree Candlekeep probably has extensive information on Netheril. I don't think many have read it or know it's there.

It would seem the Netherese only had the full set of Nether Scrolls for 400 years, which was still long enough to create their empire that lasted another 3000 years. From that point forward, it seems no one has allowed the Nether Scrolls to come together. Probably a good idea.

While the Nether Scrolls have all of the theories of magic laid out in them (and item creation, and the planes, and artifacts, etc.), there really doesn't seem to be anything useful in a game about them, as I have seen them described. It's like they are the encyclopedia set of magic. That information is already out there by current day FR, grey boxed set to current. The wizard class, and its sub classes, are the sum total of what the Nether Scrolls gave to the world. What might be interesting is if the Nether Scrolls contain the forbidden high level spells, like Karsus' spell, and with the scrolls, allows them to be cast, regardless of Mystra's ban. That would be a reason to keep them away from everyone! It would also be interesting if the scrolls touched on sorcerers or spellfire users. Nothing I'm finding says they do. Maybe a new find in current day that wasn't around for Netheril? Of course, the arcanists of Netheril would probably not be amused by sorcerers or spellfire wielders.

Thanks for the discussion!

Nether scrolls iirc basically function as an indestructible spellbook. Probably do other things eg massive bonuses on Arcana checks things like that.

 

[evildmguy]

Nether scrolls iirc basically function as an indestructible spellbook. Probably do other things eg massive bonuses on Arcana checks things like that.

I agree! I guess what I'm trying to convey, and not well, is that by current FR standards, the Nether Scrolls probably don't have anything that would surprise a wizard. They might like having that information but there are a lot of sources out there by 1372, or 1494, that the scrolls are prosaic.

I can't think of a good analogy for them. Let me try this. To become a wizard, is like becoming a mathematician. They have to know the basics of algebra and geometry before they can go onto calculus or even more advanced topis. So, the wizard, after searching for years, gets the Nether Scrolls and they are a primer on algebra and geometry. A really good primer on them but nothing that they haven't already mastered.

In a way, the Nether Scrolls have done their job because among wizards, the knowledge is out there. I don't know of something else that can claim that!

Thanks for the discussion!

 

[Maxperson]

Even if you accept the 1E DMG of 2000 years max for an elf, Netheril lasted much longer. No natural elf could have seen all of it.

Can I ask where this optimism comes from? That elves all live to the max potential age, perfectly remember everything AND write it down? And share it with others? Forgotten Realms fandom site, which is well researched, has FR elves at 750 years on average. (Elf)

Not first hand, but passed down to children and grandchildren. Recorded in books. Taught in history lessons. Elves are a very learned race. The knowledge would readily available for those who are interested in history.

Moon Elves lived in Netheril in large numbers through its entire history. They are the Forgotten Realms subrace that watches humans and view them as worth watching and potentially learning from.

I'm not suggesting every elf will have deep knowledge of Netheril, but more average elves will know of it than average humans, and to a greater degree than the average humans.

Personally, that max age is too high for me. I think I capped elves at 500 max, 225 average. Dwarves are 350 max, 150 average. Gnomes, halflings, and half-elves are the same as human.

I go the other way. I'm a big fan of Tolkien elves. My elves are immortal, but after their "lifespan" is up, they go "across the ocean" to dwell with their gods, never to return.

 

[Zardnaar]

I agree! I guess what I'm trying to convey, and not well, is that by current FR standards, the Nether Scrolls probably don't have anything that would surprise a wizard. They might like having that information but there are a lot of sources out there by 1372, or 1494, that the scrolls are prosaic.

I can't think of a good analogy for them. Let me try this. To become a wizard, is like becoming a mathematician. They have to know the basics of algebra and geometry before they can go onto calculus or even more advanced topis. So, the wizard, after searching for years, gets the Nether Scrolls and they are a primer on algebra and geometry. A really good primer on them but nothing that they haven't already mastered.

In a way, the Nether Scrolls have done their job because among wizards, the knowledge is out there. I don't know of something else that can claim that!

Thanks for the discussion!

Yeah theyre nothing special now. Unless they have additional effects the more you collect.

 

[Maxperson]

Nether scrolls iirc basically function as an indestructible spellbook. Probably do other things eg massive bonuses on Arcana checks things like that.

They were far more than a spellbook. They basically had limitless knowledge of spells, theories of magic, knowledge of the foundations that all magic on Toril was based on, and more. The more you learned, the more new and advanced knowledge you uncovered when you read them.

The Arcanus Fundare provided information on the basics of spellcasting and the various schools of magic.

The Magicus Creare dealt with the creation of magic items, but hinted at a wide range of possibilities beyond basic construction of such items.

The Maior Creare detailed the creation of magical constructs, living wards, items to enhance the user, etc.

The Planus Mechanicus talked about planar mechanics and how the planes related to one another, as well as how magic worked on each plane.

The Ars Factum was about the creation of artifacts from scratch.

 

[Zardnaar]

They were far more than a spellbook. They basically had limitless knowledge of spells, theories of magic, knowledge of the foundations that all magic on Toril was based on, and more. The more you learned, the more new and advanced knowledge you uncovered when you read them.

The Arcanus Fundare provided information on the basics of spellcasting and the various schools of magic.

The Magicus Creare dealt with the creation of magic items, but hinted at a wide range of possibilities beyond basic construction of such items.

The Maior Creare detailed the creation of magical constructs, living wards, items to enhance the user, etc.

The Planus Mechanicus talked about planar mechanics and how the planes related to one another, as well as how magic worked on each plane.

The Ars Factum was about the creation of artifacts from scratch.

Aware but theres no real game mechanics for that stuff. Its basically the phb and dmg stuff. In universe its great if your civilization lacks magic.