D&D 5E (2014) Is Point Buy Balanced?

[Blue]

Is Point Buy Balanced? I'm not asking if Point Buy is more balanced?, but rather, is it totally balanced?

There are over 54,000° combinations°° of ability scores. From 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, to 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18; and everything in between. With Point Buy this gets reduced to a few hundred that are equivalent to 27 points.

One of those combinations is the Standard Array of 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8. Another is 13, 13, 13, 12, 12, 12. Are these two combinations balanced against each other? Would two characters created with these combinations be equally effective? Would two characters of identical Race, Background, and Class built with each of these combinations be equally effective?

They may be very few score combinations that are as stark as the ones above. It may be true that 90% of combinations are balanced against each other. But, then again, maybe it's more like 50%.

Food for thought: What high score is considered the minimum for an effective build? 16? 15? 13? I once was told characters need at least a 14 in constitution alone to be effective.

Anyway what do you think? Is Point Buy totally balanced?°°°

° If I recall correctly.
°° As opposed to permutations, of which there are billions.
°°° Remember, any comparison to rolling is irrelevant because this thread is about the balance of the Point Buy method compared to itself.

Is point buy balanced...

Well, balance is compared to the other players, so since everyone has the same, by definition it is balanced.

But even there it's not actually balanced, because the classes aren't balanced in regards to ability scores. We have classes that can thrive with a single good ability score like a ranged rogue, most require two, some like the paladin really want three. And point buy doesn't deal with all of them equally.

So since the classes aren't balanced in what they want in terms of ability scores, it's impossible for point buy to be balanced.

So, take your pick, it is either absolutely balanced or can never be balanced. I don't think there can be another answer.

 

[TwoSix]

I feel like the fact that classes aren't balanced, races aren't balanced, spells aren't balanced, even the individual results on a d20 throughout the course of a session aren't balanced, is much more important than differing point buys within the same range not being balanced.

 

[Umbran]

Yeah, that's fair. What could we say? How about this, "Is Point Buy Balanced?"

Even better: "Does point-buy help provide useful balance to your games? If not, do you choose another method that does?"

 

[Blue]

Rolling stats is on average 31,3 pts.
point buy is 27pts
standard array is 27pts.
so yes, pointbuy is underpowered.

in general, I prefer increased point buy with not ASIs from race, background or feats.
or standard array that is increased, depending on power level you want to have in game.

IE:
20,20,16,14,12,12
20,18,16,14,12,10
18,16,14,12,12,10
16,14,12,12,10,8
14,14,14,12,12,12,
14,14,12,10,10,8

Because D&D favors specialization, average roll isn't a useful metric for determining if a set of ability scores are over or underpowered because it's not meaningful. All 13s would be 35 points, but that doesn't make it overpowered compared to any of the other ability generation systems. You need to look at the few highest. But how many to look at varies by class, so there's still no single metric to apply, though two highest might give a good-enough approximation.

 

[KYRON45]

Balance is a myth. There i said it!!!

What % of people just make up their stats so they get what they want? And is what they want today for character X the same as what they might want tomorrow for character Y?

This all sounds more poignant in my head. I'm going to go eat lunch now.

 

[Horwath]

Because D&D favors specialization, average roll isn't a useful metric for determining if a set of ability scores are over or underpowered because it's not meaningful. All 13s would be 35 points, but that doesn't make it overpowered compared to any of the other ability generation systems. You need to look at the few highest. But how many to look at varies by class, so there's still no single metric to apply, though two highest might give a good-enough approximation.

that is somewhat true, that is why higher scores are more expensive in point buy.
if you take my table, you could have

16,14,14,14,14,14
or
18,18,16,10,6,6

it's 86 vs 74 sum total of scores

or +13 vs +7 total modifier
I don't know if that is worth it.
you have 2 gaping holes in saving throws.

maybe best would be balanced array;
18,16,14,12,10,10
total of 80, +10 modifiers.

or if secondary stat is not really important:
18,14,14,12,12,12 or 18,14,14,14,12,10

 

[Umbran]

Balance is a myth. There i said it!!!

It isn't a myth. It's an aspiration.

 

[Blue]

agree with 99% but,


If I never see a reroll mechanic it will be too soon and I while I still do like advantage, it's so common now that I start to hate it also.
might be best to return to fixed +/-X modifiers, capped at 5. negative or positive.

starting to remove all re-rolls for +/- 5 to the d20 roll.

One of the benefits of rerolls or things like advantage/disadvantage is that it doesn't change what is possible for the character. If they have a +4 modifier they still can't hit a DC of 25 regardless if you give them advantage. Flip side with that +4 modifier they will succeed on that Easy DC 5 check, even with disadvantage.

Also, it gives a bit of a curve in it where it's less and less as the chance gets closer to 100%, where flat modifiers can make things just always work. I remember 3.x where things like trip or disarm specialized characters could make DCs that others had no chance to resist, and 5e addressed this with bounded accuracy. Considering that over 20 levels there's only a 4 point shift (from +2 to +6) from levels, and probably another 2 point in a primary ability score (+3 to +5), if advancing to 20th is only +6, having a non-scaled common +5 just blows all the math out of the water.

 

[KYRON45]

It isn't a myth. It's an aspiration.

Touche'

If we woke up tomorrow and "balance" was achieved.....i think a lot of people would then be upset that everything was too much the same.

 

[Horwath]

One of the benefits of rerolls or things like advantage/disadvantage is that it doesn't change what is possible for the character. If they have a +4 modifier they still can't hit a DC of 25 regardless if you give them advantage. Flip side with that +4 modifier they will succeed on that Easy DC 5 check, even with disadvantage.

Also, it gives a bit of a curve in it where it's less and less as the chance gets closer to 100%, where flat modifiers can make things just always work. I remember 3.x where things like trip or disarm specialized characters could make DCs that others had no chance to resist, and 5e addressed this with bounded accuracy. Considering that over 20 levels there's only a 4 point shift (from +2 to +6) from levels, and probably another 2 point in a primary ability score (+3 to +5), if advancing to 20th is only +6, having a non-scaled common +5 just blows all the math out of the water.

you can always limit it that it cannot raise d20 value over 20
IE; you rolled 17, but still failed, you add only +3 as +5 would put your d20 value over 20.

or simple white down your "take 20" score, as another passive value.
No matter the amount of modifiers, you cannot get more than that value,
maybe you could scrounge up +12, but still you could not get higher than your "take 20".