What is "railroading" to you (as a player)?

[Thomas Shey]

So doesn't it make sense that characters with low mental attributes would be roleplayed as if they didn't?

The problem isn't that they're roleplayed as they're smarter or more charismatic; its that they're played as though they're smarter or more charismatic. What I mean by that is that their (usually) smarter or more charismatic player finds a way to substitute their own traits for the character's weaker ones, therefor making them often moot (this is why the examples I've usually used have been severe, where the gap can be pretty visible). You sometimes see people pull this one with certain sorts of skills, too (this is more common with modern period games, but you can see it in fantasy games with things like survival skills); they suffer from the same sorts of problems, and are basically ways to game system. They're bad roleplaying in that they aren't being played within the capability the character actually has, and can often get away with it by not engaging the mechanics that would be limited to what the character could do.

This was much worse in the old days because often a lot of these things were thrown into the lap of the players by default anyway.

What keeps them in line are the mechanics.

Player: "I'm going to go and put my patented moves on that cute barmaid."
GM: "Sigh. Ok, let's have a roll."
Player: "Let's see...uh-oh. Eight."
GM: "Yeah, she rolls her eyes and walks away."
Player: "She must not like the strong, handsome, successful adventurer type. Either that or she's being mind-controlled. Yeah that must be it."

You won't get an argument from me about this part when the mechanics are actually engaged and there are mechanics. But even now there are a lot of things that will not get handled that way (making plans, solving puzzles and so on) so there's still lots of places to sidestep this, and that's assuming you have a group that isn't subject to letting roleplay do that with things there are mechanics for. Or are playing a game with Old School sensibilities and the whole "the answer is not on your character sheet."

 

[Bill Zebub]

Attributes say something about the PC's character, and speak to their traits. Hit points are a deeply abstracted system that owes its existence to a strong sense of convenience.

Combining all the different, unrelated things listed under "Intelligence" doesn't convey a "strong sense of convenience"?

 

[Bill Zebub]

But even now there are a lot of things that will not get handled that way (making plans, solving puzzles and so on) so there's still lots of places to sidestep this,

Yeah the one thing I will never, ever budge an inch on is the stance that if you play a dumb character you can't fully participate in the part of the game that involves solving problems, making plans, etc.

"Because roleplaying."

That's just....nuts. That literally IS the game. Pretending to be an elf is secondary or tertiary or something.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Combining all the different, unrelated things listed under "Intelligence" doesn't convey a "strong sense of convenience"?

At least its one people do in the real world all the time, even if the mapping is erratic. D&D hit points are particularly mechanical in their implimentation.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Yeah the one thing I will never, ever budge an inch on is the stance that if you play a dumb character you can't fully participate in the part of the game that involves solving problems, making plans, etc.

"Because roleplaying."

That's just....nuts. That literally IS the game. Pretending to be an elf is secondary or tertiary or something.

Whereas I consider that only part of the game like any other, and not even the part I'm that interested in.

And to be blunt: if you're interested in being involved in the planning and puzzle solving part of the game? Assign some ruddy points to intelligence or whatever else the game calls it in your system. Otherwise as far as I'm concerned you're trying to have your cake and eat it too. I just can't generate much sympathy with "I want to play a dumb character and still fully participate in the part of the game that involves characters doing things that would require some smarts." Maybe if you're stuck in an old-school roll-the-attributes-straight down game, but that's not most of the hobby these days.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Well, SW is a multi-purpose power tool (which I'm aware some people have tried to do with D&D 5e but I've expressed my opinion of trying to use wrenches as hammers before) so in part it doesn't serve the same purpose, and while you can make an argument that its a level system, its certainly not a class one. So its really not serving the same purposes that games in the D20 sphere do.

Which doesn't mean it has to interest you at all, of course, and depending on your perception, one trad game may be too much like another in the ways that matter to you. Since that's where I primarily live as a gamer (though in the more modern parts of it) there seem like some pretty big differences within it.

Also, not all trad games are D&D, or based on an iteration of its rules. I can name a dozen off the top of my head. Completely different games.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Combining all the different, unrelated things listed under "Intelligence" doesn't convey a "strong sense of convenience"?

Not as much as hit points do. Not even close, really.

My opinion of course.

 

[Bill Zebub]

Not as much as hit points do. Not even close, really.

My opinion of course.

Yeah, I'll agree there's a degree difference. But not a category difference.

 

[Bill Zebub]

Whereas I consider that only part of the game like any other, and not even the part I'm that interested in.

And to be blunt: if you're interested in being involved in the planning and puzzle solving part of the game? Assign some ruddy points to intelligence or whatever else the game calls it in your system. Otherwise as far as I'm concerned you're trying to have your cake and eat it too. I just can't generate much sympathy with "I want to play a dumb character and still fully participate in the part of the game that involves characters doing things that would require some smarts." Maybe if you're stuck in an old-school roll-the-attributes-straight down game, but that's not most of the hobby these days.

Yeah....no.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Yeah, I'll agree there's a degree difference. But not a category difference.

Degree matters to me. We all draw a line somewhere.