D&D General I’m Trying to Love D&D Again—and I’ve Got Some Complaints. Young Grognard posting.

Older Grognard posting response. When I started my gaming path, there was the white box set(D&D), the black box set(Traveller) and the 5x7 ziplock set(Star Fleet Battles). There were a few other things but as a poor starving college student, funds were limited and choices had to be made. Large university in a small otherwise rural city with one small FLGS. The size of the rental spot meant the Game Shop(real name) also had to make stocking choices. Later in my college experience came AD&D and a larger boxed set of SFB. Many of those games had a variety of players including many women. The ladies weren't just girl friends of players but free range women choosing to play the game. At the time, Gamers were the wierdos. So we really didn't care if you were female, gay, liberal, went to church or not, etc. When you are already the wierd nerd group, you don't want to be too exclusive. The movie Revenge of the Nerds really did hit close to home for many an early Gamer.

3rd party content was considered stuff in magazines like Dragon, White Wolf and Space Gamer. Of course, this was all pre Internet or even BBS. Some GMs allowed it. Others didn't. When everything is print and photocopies of print, it is much harder to keep a lot of stuff available. We often played in university supplied meeting areas so all game stuff had to be transported there and back. And stored in small dorm rooms. A lot of theater of the mind combats as maps and minis were expensive(and minis being made of lead, heavy).

Because of the rather inclusive nature of those early games, I found it hard to understand the whole 'Gamer Gate' thing. Why wouldn't you want women in gaming?

I think part of the issue today is that gaming is pretty much mainstream so players think they can be exclusive. It is no longer that small outcast band of gamers against 'normal' society. Gaming is normal. Oddly now, many gamers seem to have become rather tribal. "Oh, we only play <game X>, all others are inferior."

If the 'alphabet soup' thing bothers you, don't engage. Over the years, I noticed that many of the people yelling for tolerance are some of the most intolerant people toward those that disagree with any aspect of the thing in question. Something to keep in mind before responding to that 'player wanted' ad.

As far as 3PP, the Internet and portable devices make it possible to have the equivilent of 20+ feet of bookshelves of material at the table. So many players have an expectation that all GMs will of course allow supplement "The Lifestyle of Gray Spotted Round Eared Elves." , and get mad when the poor GM says No. And yes, during the 3e era, there were a lot of folks that published a lot of PDF material. Some good, much not so much. It kind of died down when 4e and the GSL came out. Many shifted for a few years to publishing for Pathfinder but with 5e and the newer OGL, lots of stuff is out. Crowdfunding also contributes. When you can collect the money before committing to a product, it really allows a lot of new stuff.

On knowing the game material, the Internet is the enemy. Too many players are dependent on resources like D&D Beyond or Archives of Nethys. "Why do I have to memorize anything, it is just a quick search away!" Oddly, I have seen VTTs really slow games down as players waste time searching for stuff every time it is their turn to go. Having a plan before it is your time slot seems a foreign thought to many players.

There really are a lot of good groups and players out there. But sorting through all the chaff to find a group compatable with what you think you want can be a chore. Try not to go in with a lot of expectations. Try new stuff. Sometimes it works out.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Personally, I don't care, but I prefer that people introduce themselves first as a person, before they start demanding what pronounce I use...

"As a person"? Your sexual orientation and gender expression are part of who you are, as a person.

Folks who are in the mainstream majority are used to others looking at their name or face, or hearing their voice, and being able to assume stuff, and be mostly right. Folks assuming incorrectly is infrequent, and only a minor inconvenience.

Those not in that majority actually have to spell it out, because it isn't obvious, and the common assumptions will be wrong, and made all the freakin' time.

Asking you what your pronouns are is, to them, a point of respect, that your individuality is important enough to not assume, to understand and take into consideration.
 

Hi guys. I'm a 33 year old dork who's played 5E for 7~8 years, a bit of 3.5 in high school, and a mix of other TT systems here and there (Shadowdark, Lancer, Kids on bikes, PF2, ect...). I know I'm too young to be a true grognard but I feel the label applies to me more and more every day haha. I wanted this thread to be a respectful attempt to ask a few questions and grumble a bit. Any engagement I get here I appreciate as I've been feeling a bit lost on the whole TTRPG scene for a while. I'll try to get back to everyone.

The big things I wanted to hit on why has the traditional adventure/game seemed to have been replaced? Why the weird weird mixed feelings on Thirdparty/homebrew content? Why is the current online recruiting spots (reddit, Startplaying) so... bad? Why are modern players so bad at the game and the seeming want to remove the G from RPG?

I grew up reading Dragonlance, Dragon riders of Pern and a bunch of fantasy. I grew up watching a bunch of shows like the DnD cartoon, Pirates of Blackwater, Masters of the Universe and more. Playing games like Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest, and a ton of RPG's. The feeling and style of things I see people playing/running now feel so much different then those. I understand the idea of "oh it's the same you're just not in the hip stuff anymore" but I disagree. There have been modern shows like Goblin slayer, Dungeon Meshi, Frieren, and even Made in Abyss (a bit of a stretch) that still evoke those feelings...vibes...themes... I'm not sure the way to properly explain it. The best way I can describe it is that it has the DNA of the type of fantasy I grew up enjoying. So many games I see posted are more or less giving away the whole plot like reading the back of a book. The art of subtly is lost and seems very much like the DM has a story they want to tell, if your lucky your characters will have their backstory factor in. On that point so many of the written adventures still have a good start to all of them. "You all start in the city of {Blank} here's some info on it, have some backstory on why your there and it's that of an person willing to take on dangerous jobs", it's the start of Lost Mine and others. It's perfect. I'm not the biggest fan of how written adventures play, I do like some more then others, as they feel so... weird to me where there's little to no downtime and room to breath. In most of them at least. I've always heard that a good DM will take one of those modules and fully make it their own.

My two favorite games were both Lost Mine games. One fully reworked into a western and were were dealing with the railroad company and a blue dragon calling our paladin out to dual at high noon knowing that his oath wouldn't let him back out of a challenge. Also the first game of 5E I played. I played a dragonborn monk with the dragon subclass that just came out. I made a backstory where the master of my temple was a Brass dragon who hoarded people instead of gold, making a tight nit community. When we fought the green dragon in Thundertree it got in a good advantage against us because the DM played me like a fiddle using my backstory as a string the dragon lead me along with. The fight ended with me going down and it being a pretty big coinflip on if the Dragon would win vs the rest of the party or they would pull out a win. It grabbed me and flew off, stabilizing me mid air. The party did a full hard march after the dragon deep into the woods but it had a two hour advantage on them. The DM pulled me into a 1on1 call where the dragon interrogated me with the one cultist helping. I did my best to leave clues for the party to help them find us and close the gap. When we went back to the party I was muted and loving how hard they were trying, sadly coming up short on rolls due to exhaustion they got on the march. The DM then asked me to make a new character for our next session and I was hooked on this hobby. I've not had a moment that good in 8 years.

When the OGL situation started up I didn't know too much about a lot of the things outside of the base WotC releases. It opened my eyes to other designers like Kobold press, the DM's Guild site, Kickstarter books and many more. I was angry and thought I was doing good by supporting a bunch of creators making stuff. I have a folder on my computer that's over 20 GB of DnD books...AND I CAN'T USE ANY OF THEM! I don't understand why there seems to be such a hate for anything third-party of homebrew. It truly feels like if it isn't on DnDBeyond then it doesn't exist. I really steams me to see a book that's been out for 3~5 years get put on beyond and then it's suddenly an easier pill to swallow! To bring up a third party thing really feels like I'm flagging myself to a DM as a problem player...I've had DM's hold it against me before when I've push backed against them on anything "OH I let you have your weird dumb naughty word, I don't wanna hear anything from you!"... I don't Min-Max, I don't Multiclass. I feel it would be asking too much of a DM as the mechanic is opening the door for way to much stuff to break a game. I do like to make a strong character but that's more on using weapons/spells/stats that fit the theme and do work. Also I've heard forever that "flavor is free~" well... can I use this sub/class that feels better and flavor it as something that fits the setting? No? Cool... It makes me wonder why I even care... I think on this and the last point on maybe I just need to look at this OSR I hear about so much but have no solid idea what it is. Only to see old nerds yelling at each other about BRosr or OSR OSE and a bunch of stuff that is already difficult enough to understand without them making the whole thing seem like an internet turf war.

So I'm an online only Dnd player as I live in a small town where the two times I tried to drum up interest at my local hobby shop no one was interested. I've had very little success with any post for a game. On the DnD discord, Reddit, Startplaying... they all have let me down so much. Starting with startplaying... I'm going to shoot straight from the hip on this one. I hate paid DM's, I don't think this should be a thing that exists and the idea that some of these people make a living off it is angering. I have no problem with tipping my DM every now and then as a way to recreate the "I'm bringing the pizza's tonight guys" feeling. But when it's every session it does things that makes the relationship with them different. I've played with guys who were so full of themselves that they'll be the next "Matt Mercer", guys who sucked, guys who felt so corporate they were soulless. The times I've had fun longer then a few session in a pay game has to be less then 90%. When I've tried posting that I'm looking for a game and alright with paid games but have a budget the amount of DM's that message me with games x2-3 the price I'm ok with is the majority. I've learned not to play a paid game ever again, I just wish it was a lesson I learned without giving DM's and startplaying $2,000+ over years of games that stop and start... Reddit is a bit better but the games that seem like something I'd like are snapped up real quick, it's almost like you have to be on it 24/7 just to watch for the good games to get in the first 10 people going "pick me pick me".... The majority of games I see on there and discord are a split of something close to a traditional dnd game or it's some One Piece/Pokemon/JJK game... Also the Ghosting is crazy. If I don't make the cut for the game just say so. A "Thank you for your time but I went with some other players" doesn't hurt my feelings and frees me up to get back to looking.

I'm likely going to ruffle some feathers on this one. Why are so many games just posting the alphabet spellcasting all over them? I know the way I said that was a bit rude, but I don't understand it. We're here to play as elves, paladins, dragonborn ect. Who you wanna have sex with and what you are is the last thing on my mind. I've tried running a game few times (I burned out... I just can't DM) every time I look for players I'm blown away with some of the people I get! I have three questions I put upfront before just chatting with the potential players to see if they're a good fit. It used to be two but I had to start asking "Hey I want my table to be a safe place for everyone, are you able to remove modern politics and hang-ups at the door when you sit down at my virtual table?" The amount of times I've had people have a crash out on that stating anyone who disagrees with them or is even remotely right wing isn't a human being and worthy of death is over 10. I've never seen it the other way. I've played with gay guys and they're some of my favorite to play with, dudes are funny. This posting the alphabet on a game causes me to hesitate on even looking at a game because to me it should be something that is a default and not even asked. "Be cool to everyone". Having it on the post makes me think of the people who screamed at me for just asking "IF" they could play nice with everyone...

Last point I really wanna know... Why are so many players unable to read or think! I've played games with lovely people who have to learn their character every single week, taking anywhere from 10 to 20 minutes a turn. The worst instance I had was one that took 47 minutes... I left that game after that. It feels like people who don't know fantasy, don't know games, don't know how to read are everywhere. There's such a lacking of table etiquette and respect for everyone else at the table it's crazy! It's not just on the players, the dnd content creators are just as bad! I've seen guys say to "Not uses any books and just fully improv". I've seen guys talk about Ben Huffman's 5.5 Pugilist class saying "It's the hardest class in the game, I'd have trouble playing this!" while spellcasters exist. Warning: This next two sentences contains a lethal level of smug and condescension. I'm sorry that video games and other TT games have taught me how to have more then one brain cell firing at a time, but I feel you saying that should remove you from being able to drive a car or have offspring. DnD is NOT a hard game there is not a lot to track you have an action, bonus action, movement and reaction. It's not hard and yet the DM's pull the punches all the time because they either are afraid to kill a player or didn't think on the balance on an encounter and pull back out of fear. The latter is so wild to me where there are a bunch of sites like Kobold fight club and others where you can plug in the party's # and level to get an encounter of the difficulty you want. Its easier then ever both on the DM and the players yet feels watered down more and more.

I'll end it here. I've got 7 years worth of stories where It just is a mess with moments of fun. I keep coming back to thinking on my first 5E game and trying to find anything like that. It keeps me coming back. Out of the mountain of trainwrecks I've seen, I have to be honest in that I caused a few of them. I'm not a perfect guy. I just want to know where I should look for something more traditional, exp, downtime, all that good stuff. Because I know 5.5E support it, I just can't find it. The closest is in a West March server and while that's nice... I'm looking for just 3-4 other peeps to meet up regular instead of the drop in and out nature of a West March.
Hey bud...not wanting "the alphabet" at your table is an extremely political thing.

Also, without proof i find it hard to believe thst anyone has ever told you that anyone with slightly right leaning views isnt a person and deserves death.

Meanwhile i see people in the dnd community say that ablut trans people at least once a month.

People are trying to just play the game. The people who don't think they should exist make that hard, so they put pronouns and identifying shorthand in their bios and only play at tables that explicitly say they are welcome.

It isnt complicated.
 

"As a person"? Your sexual orientation and gender expression are part of who you are, as a person.
There are many things that are part of you as a person, you don't share or 'demand' at first introduction, if ever. Sorry, but I don't really care about your sexual orientation, nor do I really care about your gender expression. If I'm curious and it's appropriate, I'll ask. It seems a bit like the tendency in certain cultures for people to define themselves by the work they do... I'm generally not interested about hearing that first thing, unless in a professional atmosphere, when I want to know I'll ask.

There's a huge difference between "Hi I'm xyz, I like 123, I've been doing abc. <insert more conversation> I would like it if you could call me by <insert pronoun>.". And there have been instances where people demanded they be called by <insert pronoun> before even identifying themselves by name or even saying hi... There's also a huge difference between asking and demanding. In the same way if someone asks if they could sit <reason abc> or demanding they sit, because they're <reason xyz>. Chances are good I'll stand up for the former and ignore the later (unless I'm sitting in a spot reserved for that subset of people). You also don't start a polite conversation with "I demand!" or "I want!". Even in a restaurant you ask "I would like..." when ordering food.

In the society I live in, most people don't know the sexual orientation of the people they know, only by inference. Gender expression is a bit different, often quite obvious when the change happens. The biggest issue tends to be the them/they people, but often also identifiable in person. But even then, we tend to use the name of the person when referencing someone.

I do get it, when this happens, this has often been the most central thing in their life for a LONG time. It's important to them. But that doesn't mean it has to be as important to me or anyone else.

You are not special due to your sexual orientation, gender expression, skin color, political leaning, religion, social/economic status, etc.
 


Personally, I don't care, but I prefer that people introduce themselves first as a person, before they start demanding what pronounce I use... But when you're essentially doing rando groups on the Internet, you have very little say in who you play with. If you go to certain sites or respond to certain ads for groups without xyz, be prepared to feel very uncomfortable on the other side of the spectrum... The world changes, you better change with it, or be left out again...

Okay, but why announce that? Like, I’m sorry but even this statement says a lot - you don’t care but you clearly cared enough to express your annoyance and discomfort.

And don’t you think it’s harder for the person impacted to have to hide who they are because others are uncomfortable using a pronoun?

Again, if someone actually stated this in person or in response to a game posting, I’d be outta there. Life’s way too short to give that kind of benefit of a doubt.
 

There are many things that are part of you as a person, you don't share or 'demand' at first introduction, if ever. Sorry, but I don't really care about your sexual orientation, nor do I really care about your gender expression. If I'm curious and it's appropriate, I'll ask. It seems a bit like the tendency in certain cultures for people to define themselves by the work they do... I'm generally not interested about hearing that first thing, unless in a professional atmosphere, when I want to know I'll ask.

There's a huge difference between "Hi I'm xyz, I like 123, I've been doing abc. <insert more conversation> I would like it if you could call me by <insert pronoun>.". And there have been instances where people demanded they be called by <insert pronoun> before even identifying themselves by name or even saying hi... There's also a huge difference between asking and demanding. In the same way if someone asks if they could sit <reason abc> or demanding they sit, because they're <reason xyz>. Chances are good I'll stand up for the former and ignore the later (unless I'm sitting in a spot reserved for that subset of people). You also don't start a polite conversation with "I demand!" or "I want!". Even in a restaurant you ask "I would like..." when ordering food.

In the society I live in, most people don't know the sexual orientation of the people they know, only by inference. Gender expression is a bit different, often quite obvious when the change happens. The biggest issue tends to be the them/they people, but often also identifiable in person. But even then, we tend to use the name of the person when referencing someone.

I do get it, when this happens, this has often been the most central thing in their life for a LONG time. It's important to them. But that doesn't mean it has to be as important to me or anyone else.

You are not special due to your sexual orientation, gender expression, skin color, political leaning, religion, social/economic status, etc.
If you "don't care" about something integral to my identity, such as my gender orientation . . . than I "don't care" to game with someone so closed minded.
 

There's a huge difference between "Hi I'm xyz, I like 123, I've been doing abc. <insert more conversation> I would like it if you could call me by <insert pronoun>.". And there have been instances where people demanded they be called by <insert pronoun> before even identifying themselves by name or even saying hi... There's also a huge difference between asking and demanding.
I think demanding to be called by your preferred pronouns, just like demanding to be called by your preferred name, is pretty reasonable. I think it is unreasonable to expect otherwise. People want to be addressed as who they are. If you have a problem with that, it is very much a you problem.

Frankly, they shouldn't have to demand it, though. It should just be an expectation, and no one should have a problem with it. When my spouse introduces themselves as "Carmen, they/them," that's it. Done. There's no further conversation necessary, time to move on, and if someone can't respect it then that's not someone we want to have a conversation with, anyway.

When did asking someone to address you respectfully become an issue for some folks?

Edit: the first thing I do at D&D Club is ask everyone to introduce themselves by name and prefered pronouns, so we all know. It is not a discussion, and nobody has an issue. Young folks want to address each other correctly, because that is how polite conversation works.

When he was a bit older, I asked my son his preferred pronouns. We had always called him by masculine ones, but it was good to have him confirm it.
 
Last edited:

There are many things that are part of you as a person, you don't share or 'demand' at first introduction, if ever. Sorry, but I don't really care about your sexual orientation, nor do I really care about your gender expression. If I'm curious and it's appropriate, I'll ask. It seems a bit like the tendency in certain cultures for people to define themselves by the work they do... I'm generally not interested about hearing that first thing, unless in a professional atmosphere, when I want to know I'll ask.

There's a huge difference between "Hi I'm xyz, I like 123, I've been doing abc. <insert more conversation> I would like it if you could call me by <insert pronoun>.". And there have been instances where people demanded they be called by <insert pronoun> before even identifying themselves by name or even saying hi... There's also a huge difference between asking and demanding. In the same way if someone asks if they could sit <reason abc> or demanding they sit, because they're <reason xyz>. Chances are good I'll stand up for the former and ignore the later (unless I'm sitting in a spot reserved for that subset of people). You also don't start a polite conversation with "I demand!" or "I want!". Even in a restaurant you ask "I would like..." when ordering food.

In the society I live in, most people don't know the sexual orientation of the people they know, only by inference. Gender expression is a bit different, often quite obvious when the change happens. The biggest issue tends to be the them/they people, but often also identifiable in person. But even then, we tend to use the name of the person when referencing someone.

I do get it, when this happens, this has often been the most central thing in their life for a LONG time. It's important to them. But that doesn't mean it has to be as important to me or anyone else.

You are not special due to your sexual orientation, gender expression, skin color, political leaning, religion, social/economic status, etc.
I do not need to request that you call me by the correct name and pronouns. I tell you my name and pronouns, and you use them correctly. Period.
 


Recent & Upcoming Releases

Remove ads

Top