Homebrew Homebrew: Fixing the Rogue

[Gorck]

If you’re looking for a “simple” way to fix Rogues, just give them Extra Attack at 5th level and then allow SA to work for their second attack as well.

 

[NotAYakk]

My Rogue fix is to give them two features with upgrades.

1. At level 5, instead of Uncanny Dodge they get Disruptive Strike.
At level 10 this improves.

2. At level 3, they get "Uncanny Accuracy".

3. At level 11 and 17 they gain Lightning Reflexes. (this is basically a DS upgrade).

Disruptive Strike: Starting at level 5, you can expend a reaction when an attack hits within the reach or range of your weapons, and you can identify the attacker. Make a weapon attack on the attacker. If this weapon attack hits, the triggering attack must be rerolled with disadvantage.

Starting at level 10, you can use this ability in response to the magic action being taken. If this weapon attack hits, the target must make a concentration save against the damage you do, or the action fails.

Uncanny Accuracy: Starting at level 3, when you make an attack that would qualify for adding sneak attack damage, you can consume sneak attack damage to increase the d20 roll by 1 for every sneak attack dice you consume. These consumed sneak attack dice cannot be rolled for damage or used for anything else until the end of the current turn, and you can only consume up to half (rounded down) of your sneak attack dice this way.

Lightning Reflexes: Starting at level 11, you can take a second reaction, but no more than once per turn. At level 17 you can take a 3rd reaction, still no more than once per turn.

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These all fit the Rogue at-will pattern. Disruptive Strike rewards putting yourself into a position where you can make an attack with advantage or with an ally adjacent to an enemy on your off-turn, and it massively encourages paying attention when it isn't your turn. The Lighting Reflexes upgrade gives you more uses against more targets (or against a legendary foe).

 

[Mistwell]

I think the only change rogue needs is relatively minor. Give them a bump to sneak attack progression at levels 5, 11 and 17 (just like a cantrip). That's it. Do that, and I think their damage keeps up.

 

[Horwath]

1. Extra attack at level 6.
2. Sneak attack works with every attack that deals damage.
3. Assassin deals +1 damage with sneak attack per level. This bonus is doubled on the 1st round.

Optional for people that do not like to roll too much dice, and a little buff to sneak attack:
Sneak attack: add +2 damage per rogue level

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

I've been playing where you crit on a 20 or by hitting by 10 or more, and feel that takes care of Rogue's pretty well as they have consistent sources of advantage so crit a ton. Formerly I had given them extra attack at 6th but I am not sure if that is needed anymore.

 

[Bluenose]

Currently the rogue has more utility than any warrior, even arguably the ranger. Expertise, 4 skills + thieves tools (which in the current rules means that taking slieght of hand give the rogue advantage on every check to pick a lock or disarm a trap) cunning action, level 5 cunning strike makes cunning action more versatile, level 6 expertise, and level 7 reliable talent, is a crazy package.

Well, that's also part of the problem with Rogues. They have great skills. What those skills do is almost entirely undefined. And every GM is going to have a different idea of what they should be able to do, particularly at higher levels. So you're a19th level Rogue, everything you can do with your Thieves' Tools is at maximum, and... What? Can you unlock the side-door to the Hells and sneak in? Ask your GM, plenty of whom will default to being cautious about what exactly they allow those skills to do.
If you want to "fix" the premiere skill-monkey class, defining what skills can do at more than the lower levels seems like it'd be a good place to start.

 

[Horwath]

As an aside, i don't know that it is a good thing for the rogue to "catch up" in damage dealing.

Currently the rogue has more utility than any warrior, even arguably the ranger. Expertise, 4 skills + thieves tools (which in the current rules means that taking slieght of hand give the rogue advantage on every check to pick a lock or disarm a trap) cunning action, level 5 cunning strike makes cunning action more versatile, level 6 expertise, and level 7 reliable talent, is a crazy package.

I don't think the game should ever be balanced based on a featureless room where only combat of the most simple kind occurs. It should be balanced on the assumption that many fights will have terrain and that many sessions will only feature 1 fight if any at all. How the game is actually played. In a game like that, the rogue has the spotlight and shines hright plenty, without needing any boost to damage.

while I agree on this, I have seen in all the years playing that in more sessions social abilities are ignored than combat ones.

As the saying goes:

You can turn every social encounter into a combat one, but you cannot turn every combat encounter into a social one.

 

[CreamCloud0]

while I agree on this, I have seen in all the years playing that in more sessions social abilities are ignored than combat ones.

As the saying goes:

You can turn every social encounter into a combat one, but you cannot turn every combat encounter into a social one.

To quote Vaarsuvius:

"As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero."

 

[tetrasodium]

while I agree on this, I have seen in all the years playing that in more sessions social abilities are ignored than combat ones.

As the saying goes:

You can turn every social encounter into a combat one, but you cannot turn every combat encounter into a social one.

Huh? Cunning action is a combat ability. I'm really not sure why "social [pillar] encounter" came up in response to a post about the rogue's strong exploration pillar showing during a dungeon crawl compared to other martials like ranger & fighter∆. Did you mix up threads and confuse charisma based sorcerer/warlock with dex based rogue?

∆ie the two that rogue supposedly needs to "catch up" to.

 

[James Gasik]

This really is D&D in a nutshell. In most games, combat isn't a fail state, it's an inevitability. You don't know what sorts of exploration or social challenges you might encounter, or how difficult they might be. But you do know that you're going to be asked to "roll for initiative" at least once per session, and probably more often than that.

It's this mindset that ensured that every class is useful in combat in 5e. Unfortunately, how much a class has to "pay" for it's out-of-combat utility is murky and unclear, and we've seen how the game has struggled to come up with anything better than "make numbers bigger" for the non-combat pillars. In combat? Sure, you can attack more, heal in combat, reduce damage, bonus action disengage, debilitate foes- the possibilities seem endless.

Oh we're not in initiative? Uh, yeah, make a DC 17 Cha check. That's social interaction, baby!

The Rogue has the most reliably large numbers out of combat. It's also the only "resourceless" class (as in, it doesn't have many abilities that are limited-use, it doesn't have technique/focus/ki/whatever points, it doesn't innately come with spell slots or have many powers that recharge after rest. Outside of hit points, the Rogue functions exactly the same in the first minute of a game day as it does in the last. And that is a strength, to be sure, to be the true "simple class" in a way Fighter or Barbarian actually aren't.

But that simplicity also works against it. In combat, the Rogue is boring. It's all about getting the Sneak Attack, and sure, it has flavorful abilities in 5.5e, but they require sacrificing the Rogue's consistent, but middling damage to use- which I think is a mistake. Now the player has to juggle options to decide what's going to end damage faster, and the reality is, in a lot of cases, the best negative condition you can apply to foes is "KO'd".

Weapon options are generally "how do I Sneak Attack more reliably" instead of anything truly interesting (I know some will argue this point, but look at how many people assume dual-wielding Rogues with Nick + Vex, lol).

And it's not like dual wielding in melee is a great idea for the Rogue, with middle of the road hit points, terrible AC, and their main ways to avoid damage coming down to 1/round reaction ability and a bonus action Disengage/Hide. If an enemy seriously wants to paste the Rogue, they can, and there's not much you can do about it.

You basically have to hope that nothing sees you as annoying enough to throw more than one attack your way each round!

And again, those reliably large numbers actually serve to frustrate the DM and other players. The DM doesn't really know how to handle a guy who can make DC 20 rolls in his sleep while his other players have to pray to the dice gods for a roll of 15 or higher on a d20.

And other players might as well not even bother to have a skill if the Rogue has decided to specialize in it. The DM says "ok everyone, I need a Dex (Hooliganism) check" and there's no excitement about tossing the d20, because the Rogue will probably double your result without even rolling.

Oh and if your DM uses rational DC's for checks? The Rogue player might feel like their "cool thing" is going to waste. "I'm rolling 30's here, and it's not any better than the 16's the other guys rolled?".

D&D doesn't have "degrees of success" baked into it's system. Just about everything is pass/fail, and that's to the Rogue's detriment.

So not only should Sneak Attack not have fiddly requirements, I think the Rogue's special strikes should have some other cost than damage. And the game needs to have degrees of success taken into account, so the Rogue isn't basically playing a different game than anyone else outside of combat.

And someone should figure out what an exploration or social ability should look like that isn't "number go big, brr" that players will find useful.

That's how I see the Rogue being improved.