D&D General Is D&D Beyond Exclusivity Bad for D&D?

I think you answer your own question. You center the issue on yourself and your own experience. But it's not about you. It's about the future. I haven't played the overwhelming majority of videogames, but I can recognize that losing them to the ravages of time is a blow to how people in the future will be able to research and learn about the development of the art form. Hell, the majority of silent films just flat out dont exist. Its a loss.
You are correct, I was speaking for myself. But I also was guesstimating what the rest of the gaming populace would feel as well. I have no proof of my guesses, that's why they are just guesses... but I feel as though based on seeing how society has treating things in the past, I believe my guesses to be fairly on the money. You disagree, that's fine. I just think you're wrong.

You mention how the loss of old stuff to the sands of time is a blow. Which I agree... to some people it is. But I defy anyone to actually think the loss of the hundreds/thousands of silent black and white films (as you brought up) is a blow to most of the people of the world. I think I am right in my guess that most people in the world couldn't give a single darn about all these silent films that they are unable to see. Film historians? Absolutely it's a painful loss. But to the other 99.99% of the population? Couldn't care less. And it's no different than if you ask all the players of video games "Do you miss not having your NES anymore?" Or sports fans "Do you miss not having your stack of Sports Illustrateds to flip through and re-read?" The answer of course being for most of them "No, of course not." Because we all have new stuff that has more than taken the place of all of that old stuff we lost.

And that's how it's going to be about these "DDB Exclusive" items. Virtually no one is going to remember them if/when DDB goes away... and even fewer are going to care that they used to exist. At least, that is my guess. If I'm wrong, that's fine, no big whoop. After all... if/when that ever comes to pass (if it even does)... I won't even remember that I made this guess today. Nor will I care if my guess was wrong or right. I'm just passing the time writing stuff on EN World because I have the week off from work so the stuff I'm writing now I won't even remember having written in like another month or two anyway.
 

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You are correct, I was speaking for myself. But I also was guesstimating what the rest of the gaming populace would feel as well. I have no proof of my guesses, that's why they are just guesses... but I feel as though based on seeing how society has treating things in the past, I believe my guesses to be fairly on the money. You disagree, that's fine. I just think you're wrong.

You mention how the loss of old stuff to the sands of time is a blow. Which I agree... to some people it is. But I defy anyone to actually think the loss of the hundreds/thousands of silent black and white films (as you brought up) is a blow to most of the people of the world. I think I am right in my guess that most people in the world couldn't give a single darn about all these silent films that they are unable to see. Film historians? Absolutely it's a painful loss. But to the other 99.99% of the population? Couldn't care less. And it's no different than if you ask all the players of video games "Do you miss not having your NES anymore?" Or sports fans "Do you miss not having your stack of Sports Illustrateds to flip through and re-read?" The answer of course being for most of them "No, of course not." Because we all have new stuff that has more than taken the place of all of that old stuff we lost.

And that's how it's going to be about these "DDB Exclusive" items. Virtually no one is going to remember them if/when DDB goes away... and even fewer are going to care that they used to exist. At least, that is my guess. If I'm wrong, that's fine, no big whoop. After all... if/when that ever comes to pass (if it even does)... I won't even remember that I made this guess today. Nor will I care if my guess was wrong or right. I'm just passing the time writing stuff on EN World because I have the week off from work so the stuff I'm writing now I won't even remember having written in like another month or two anyway.
Pretty much this. Thing about EN World is it remembers better than Pepperidge Farms does.
 

why is it a death spiral, can you make a case for it? The way I see it, it it had to be one, 5e would have had to spiral to its death years ago already
Death spirals can take a very long time, so I dunno why it would have happened already, but my point is that 5.5E does not seem (and we can only go with "seems", sadly, we just don't have figures, but this is a discussion of opinion, not hard facts, so I think that's okay, right?) to be attracting new players nor particularly bringing back a lot of lapsed players (not zero but not significant numbers), and in fact D&D seems to be slowly losing players at this point and to have been doing so for a while.

If you increasing your focus on just pushing subscriptions to a diminishing group, we've seen what happens for decades, maybe even close to a century at this point, because this goes back long before computers or the internet. You get into a situation where you keep slowly or rapidly losing users, and aren't getting new ones, but you have a constant, and, for a long time, substantial income stream which seems worth keeping, and in a lot of cases there's just an attitude of "benign neglect" where, sure, they're making less and less money, but they're still extremely profitable. This will be particularly true as more and more people move away from physical media to digital, which has a hugely higher profit margin on it. I mean, you can probably make more money on selling 5k books at N price digitally through your own store than you can on selling 15k books at N*1.8 via Amazon. Both are profit streams and the ideal case is people buy both (or better yet, as WotC is doing, the physical book is also bought through their store, so more of the profit from that goes to them, though they have to offer deals/incentives to do this, which cuts into that potentially).

So this whole idea that they should just keep going with 5.5E indefinitely as the market slow or rapidly shrinks doesn't seem likely to work out.

And WotC aren't, say, Chaosium. I think people forget that. Chaosium or the like might be happy with an "evergreen" product which they just refresh occasionally, as CoC is.

WotC however are a significant corporate entity who are part of Hasbro (who are undeniably greedy and have a long history of precipitous actions lacking foresight, like, say, sell off allllllll their brands digitals rights, as they did in the early 2000s, for a pittance), and who have threatened to stop making D&D before (though it is to be admitted they did not make good on their threat, it was taken seriously by designers). Shareholders in Hasbro have floated the idea of selling off WotC, or even selling off D&D specifically (IIRC).

So I think if they did just stick with this 5.5E forever plan that some people have suggested is D&D's playerbase would shrink and shrink, and 5.5E would accumulate more and more and more semi-optional cruft and insane amounts of stuff it kind of had to be "back compatible" with as 5.5.5E and so on came out, but because it would likely remain profitable for a long time (esp. with a Beyond-focused approach), it would get into situation where some new WotC or Hasbro exec suddenly decided to vault the IP or sell it off or w/e. Whereas I don't think that's likely to happen if a more typical course for D&D is taken, and we continue to get actual new editions.

Seems to me that many of the people wishing for 6e don't play 5e and quite likely wouldn't play 6e, or if they did play 6e would soon get tired of it as well and move on to something else.
People said the same about every edition. Even 3E. Hell, even 2E! "< sticks thumbs in belt, adopts Old West accent > H'well I reckon there ain't many fellas out there who actually h'want to play [next edition] and thems fellas that say they does will be mighty bored mighty soon!". It's an old, old refrain. It's always been wrong so far, and always spoken with utter confidence despite that.

If they're going to take a risk, I'd expect it to be into other genres like sci-fi with Exodus or maybe a new take on a modern day D&D.
Again, every time that's been tried by WotC, it's been a car crash. Similar attempts haven't been very successful for other companies either.

They already have an Exodus RPG which basically no-one bought, and the fact that you're writing like they haven't tried that really highlights how that was a bad idea.

So as much as I'd love to see new high production values SF RPGs, I don't think this is a suggestion that makes much sense. Modern day D&D is always a bad idea, especially because the people who design it are always weirdly old fogies who hate anime and refuse to even consider emulating its tropes, but the main core audience for that would 100% be people who love anime and videogames (and certain kinds of Isekai particularly).
 

That's the thing... yes, there's a chance a lot of this stuff will "go away" as advances come and go. But don't we all expect that and have accepted it as a fait accompli? Especially considering who knows if any of that stuff will actually still be wanted and viable in the next 5, 10, 25 years?

I think he means this in terms of archiving for academic use and study, not in the sense of people actively playing it.
 






Death spirals can take a very long time, so I dunno why it would have happened already, but my point is that 5.5E does not seem (and we can only go with "seems", sadly, we just don't have figures, but this is a discussion of opinion, not hard facts, so I think that's okay, right?) to be attracting new players nor particularly bringing back a lot of lapsed players (not zero but not significant numbers), and in fact D&D seems to be slowly losing players at this point and to have been doing so for a while.

If you increasing your focus on just pushing subscriptions to a diminishing group, we've seen what happens for decades, maybe even close to a century at this point, because this goes back long before computers or the internet. You get into a situation where you keep slowly or rapidly losing users, and aren't getting new ones, but you have a constant, and, for a long time, substantial income stream which seems worth keeping, and in a lot of cases there's just an attitude of "benign neglect" where, sure, they're making less and less money, but they're still extremely profitable. This will be particularly true as more and more people move away from physical media to digital, which has a hugely higher profit margin on it. I mean, you can probably make more money on selling 5k books at N price digitally through your own store than you can on selling 15k books at N*1.8 via Amazon. Both are profit streams and the ideal case is people buy both (or better yet, as WotC is doing, the physical book is also bought through their store, so more of the profit from that goes to them, though they have to offer deals/incentives to do this, which cuts into that potentially).

There is no evidence they've started that death spiral. Even if sales aren't growing at the rate they did before, even if they slow down somewhat, there's no indication that D&D's market share has dropped. It also ignores the revenue stream of DDB.

So this whole idea that they should just keep going with 5.5E indefinitely as the market slow or rapidly shrinks doesn't seem likely to work out.

And WotC aren't, say, Chaosium. I think people forget that. Chaosium or the like might be happy with an "evergreen" product which they just refresh occasionally, as CoC is.

WotC however are a significant corporate entity who are part of Hasbro (who are undeniably greedy and have a long history of precipitous actions lacking foresight, like, say, sell off allllllll their brands digitals rights, as they did in the early 2000s, for a pittance), and who have threatened to stop making D&D before (though it is to be admitted they did not make good on their threat, it was taken seriously by designers). Shareholders in Hasbro have floated the idea of selling off WotC, or even selling off D&D specifically (IIRC).

All companies are greedy. It's called capitalism.

So I think if they did just stick with this 5.5E forever plan that some people have suggested is D&D's playerbase would shrink and shrink, and 5.5E would accumulate more and more and more semi-optional cruft and insane amounts of stuff it kind of had to be "back compatible" with as 5.5.5E and so on came out, but because it would likely remain profitable for a long time (esp. with a Beyond-focused approach), it would get into situation where some new WotC or Hasbro exec suddenly decided to vault the IP or sell it off or w/e. Whereas I don't think that's likely to happen if a more typical course for D&D is taken, and we continue to get actual new editions.


People said the same about every edition. Even 3E. Hell, even 2E! "< sticks thumbs in belt, adopts Old West accent > H'well I reckon there ain't many fellas out there who actually h'want to play [next edition] and thems fellas that say they does will be mighty bored mighty soon!". It's an old, old refrain. It's always been wrong so far, and always spoken with utter confidence despite that.

As I've said, after initial growth period that lasted for about a decade, every edition of D&D saw quick drop-off in sales. Then 5e broke that pattern so it no longer applies and we're in uncharted waters. Saying 5.5 is going to be exactly like those pre-5e editions is meaningless ... things changed. We have no idea what sales are like now because WOTC doesn't tell us and the category for the books has changed on Amazon, but there's no indication of a decrease in sales.

The other big change is that DDB is popular, stable and not written using Silverlight so it's not going to hit the same brick walk DDI did. DDB acting as a sales portal for third party products gives them a way of getting revenue from other companies taking all the financial risk.

Again, every time that's been tried by WotC, it's been a car crash. Similar attempts haven't been very successful for other companies either.

They already have an Exodus RPG which basically no-one bought, and the fact that you're writing like they haven't tried that really highlights how that was a bad idea.


So as much as I'd love to see new high production values SF RPGs, I don't think this is a suggestion that makes much sense. Modern day D&D is always a bad idea, especially because the people who design it are always weirdly old fogies who hate anime and refuse to even consider emulating its tropes, but the main core audience for that would 100% be people who love anime and videogames (and certain kinds of Isekai particularly).

There was a small print run for Exodus when the game was announced and you can't purchase the books any more, if there is going to be a bigger push they're waiting for the video game to come out. I'm not saying Exodus or any other variation is going to be anywhere near as big as D&D and I'm not sure why you think I did. What I said was that if they wanted to take a risk and do speculative development, that is where it would be.

I don't think WOTC is going to kill the golden goose of the the 5e core systems anytime soon even if they introduce tweaks and modifications like they did with splat books during 5e. But a new release in 2027? That's not going to happen.
 

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