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Updated Monsters- Fan Project

keterys

First Post
No, and we honestly don't know _how_ it would update. Just making its bite do 35 damage, then letting it have 8 of them per round at +2 attack over base, at +2 attack and +5 damage against marked, with +10 damage per hit after the first... would be disingenuous.

Ie, that +15 damage and all of those attacks actually factors into the average damage of the bite somehow :)

If you did blindly update it to a 35 damage avg bite before its bonuses, though, you could work it up to 192 damage in the round. That'd be pretty hilarious. (Presumably a lot less, though, since you'd drop the defender and lose the marked bonus and have to start up a new +10 damage rhythm on another target)
 

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Aegeri

First Post
No, and we honestly don't know _how_ it would update.

I usually use the multiple target expressions when it comes to large multiple attack powers like these. The important things to remember with a multiple attack power is that they suffer all the same disadvantages, for example a Hydra is very boned by the blinded condition and also suffers heavily from resistances. By 18th/20th level PCs have good access to many resistances and the ability to penalize monsters attacks/damage strongly.

Having run creatures like hydras in the past their flaw is they hit very rarely and cat scratch when they do. Actually hitting like a dump truck is important and is actually a strong requirement. On the turn they have enough attacks and aren't blinded/taking a penalty or similar, they need to be able to do something significant while they can actually function.

The original Heroslayer Hydra doesn't live up to its reputation. I can tell you that. The version I used was level 25 and had the following (note this is pre-MM3, so I more or less winged this):

2d8+8 + 2d8 acid damage and +10 against a marked target. Each attack after the first that hit dealt an additional +10 as well (but I limited that to only a target that marked the hydra).

It's usual damage was 2d8+8+2d8+10+10 = 4d8+28 damage after the first attack. He had a +3 instead of +2 bonus (which actually isn't that far off what a MM3ized Heroslayer would have, given he'd be starting at level+5 for his attack, not level +3).

That definitely pounded the defender into the dirt. It also meant the hydra wasn't static, just locked down chipping away ineffectively at the defenders AC for no basically no damage at all. Be aware though that if the Heroslayer hydra isn't very good either, imagine how poorly the original MM hydras do against high paragon/epic parties.

Just making its bite do 35 damage, then letting it have 8 of them per round at +2 attack over base, at +2 attack and +5 damage against marked, with +10 damage per hit after the first... would be disingenuous.
Consider what happens when the creature has the blind condition, which is a -5 to every attack. Or has a condition that reduces damage (Like Iron to Glass). Low damage with lots of attacks is a poor strategy that never works. My heroslayer hydra challenged a party at 24th level (it was level 25). The original actual heroslayer hydra barely failed to challenge a sixteenth level party. In fact I don't think it even bloodied anyone with eight attacks.

Damage is important and being able to lay it on even more so. If the PCs put a few conditions on it, the fight is manageable. It's when the PCs don't have conditions that the Hydra needs to pounce and show it is a threat to be taken seriously. Also, the bite attack doesn't have to target the same creature, it can target whomever it wants and ideally the monster should change targets when it downs a PC (unless exceptional circumstances exist).

If you did blindly update it to a 35 damage avg bite before its bonuses, though, you could work it up to 192 damage in the round.
It needs to be obscenely lucky to do that though and won't usually get away with it. High damage numbers sound scary in theory, but never come out during an actual game - especially when you consider the array of powers and options to 18th level parties.

Edit: And I have just had the most awesome idea for an updated heroslayer hydra now.

Edit: Holy crapsticks, I can almost do a 2for1 here with a more unified concept of the "Heroslayer Hydra" being anti-defender and the "Guardian Hydra" being a defender version for an area/item/creature of the heroslayer. I can also simplify all the word slayer in the Guardian Hydra with this new idea. Excellent. Also yes, I know the Heroslayer Hydra is from MM2. It doesn't mean he doesn't need love.

Edit3: Yeah, the statblock is now entirely different! Much cleaner mechanics.
 
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Aegeri

First Post
This is the last WIP for tonight, I do need to sleep at some point. But I couldn't resist taking a different interpretation on Hydra fury.

GuardianHydra4.png


I will also update the Heroslayer Hydra, as I had a terrific idea for that. I've still not got a 100% clear direction on this creature yet though, but I'm beginning to see how to make it more mechanically diverse. Also in case the MB still hates me and eats things at random, he can get a maximum of three extra bite attacks. Recursive infinite oregano like bite attacks was not the intention.
 
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keterys

First Post
Ongoing acid gives you a solid punch that doesn't stack, hydra fury is less alpha striky, deadly jaws is definitely not multiple times a round, good defense on being dragged out of his area. Good show.
 

Edit: The monster builder has REALLY messed up the entire dracolich stat block. It's completely correct when editing it, but the actual output screen it's completely wrong. What the heck?

Edit2: Fixed. My apologies for those mistakes. You may have to refresh the page/clear cookies to see the updated version (I just replaced the older one).

Edit3: It's done it with the hydra as well. God that is frustrating.
I feel your pain. I've had the same problems, only finding out when ready to print that it was all messed up. Only to discover that my edited monsters in the MB was totally messed up as well :eek:
 

CovertOps

First Post
I like that the Hydra can make 3 attacks against whatever has it marked and for each hit it can take an attack vs. a non-marked enemy (without penalty - but that goes without saying right?)
 

CovertOps

First Post
Also...I really like the Purple Worm and it's exactly the right level for my party (currently level 18) so after the weekend I'll let you know how it ran with a real group. :p
 

Aegeri

First Post
I like that the Hydra can make 3 attacks against whatever has it marked and for each hit it can take an attack vs. a non-marked enemy (without penalty - but that goes without saying right?)

The hydra can only shed marks on his own turn, which he normally will anyway but he can't shed a mark if the enemy is in his guarded area or whatever. For example, if the defender is running around with the magical macguffin the hydra is guarding then the defender can mark the Hydra and he can't ignore the mark. On the other hand, if the defender isn't in the area, holding the item or attacked the Hydra's master then he has no chance of holding a mark on the hydra for very long.

This represents a magical effect that prevents the Hydra being "distracted" by the marks of defenders over doing its job (EG killing the thief nicking the maguffin). This also allows the party to manipulate the hydra - it attacks whoever is within its guarded area, or has the item or whatever over anyone else. Also it allows the defender a chance to hold its attention as well, by holding the item, entering the area or similar. It's worth noting this is a really basic kind of "passive" control for this monster - if you want to be effective against it you often have to enter dangerous terrain (It's fond of water remember) or similar. Places a PC doesn't want to fight in, but has to if they want to use their abilities to the maximum against the hydra.

As a general rule though, the main attacks are usually directed against a marked target and the remainder at anyone else who happens to be unlucky enough to be nearby.

CovertOps said:
Also...I really like the Purple Worm and it's exactly the right level for my party (currently level 18) so after the weekend I'll let you know how it ran with a real group. :p

I am glad so many seem to like what I did with the purple worm. What is the party composition there?

Edit: Also, I updated the Dracolich slightly. Another couple of errors from the MB eating things at random sigh.
 
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sc8rpi8n

First Post
This thread is great, full of useful info.

Aegeri,

While I like your design, I have to admit the majority of the statblocks you have posted are too complicated for my tastes, so I'll probably simplify them before I use them in my games.
The one I like the most is the Dracolich, I think you changed it from the "stun terror" to a good, fun solo monster.

I would like to contribute to this thread posting my own version of the purple worm. I used it successfully in an encounter against five 13th level PCs.
Keep in mind I made it before MM3 so the damage expressions need to be updated.
 

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