D&D 5E Mearls and Crawford interview with The Mary Sue

The Myopic Sniper · Jul 28, 2014

I don't mind cheesecake medieval art if that is the tone you are trying to set throughout a game. I think for D&D in 2014 that probably isn't a way you want to go. Including some pieces like that with characters and monsters where it makes sense (Incubus, Sucubus) is a nice way to acknowledge it without seeming prudish about it.

The odd thing is that all the people I know who are really into that art style are females, but it is definitely a niche thing with painting now, even if those kind of representations are the default in the video game world.

WayneLigon · Jul 28, 2014

Selkirk said:
i respect mearls (and i even bought the starter set ) but i have to say i wholeheartedly disagree with the art direction so far..

I wondered when we'd finally get a 'The art direction sucks/rules' set of posts, given the huge controversies in 3E's early days about the 'dungeonpunk' art style and poor Hennet's questionable sartorial tastes. So far as I can see, the art direction is very much back to the 'more classic' lines of traditional fantasy art: warriors in full armor, wizards in robes, etc etc. I broke out the old 1E players guide to look at the art and it's very much within the same vein. Any 'sexiness' or even 'edginess' in D&D's original art style is a matter of a bare handful of notable exceptions to the rule that stand out so large because they are exceptions: the aforementioned succubus, a couple of other monster pics, a wanton party pic in an early issue of The Dragon (that I seem to remember did cause some actual controversy), and that's pretty much it. All of the pics of adventuring people in the original PHB with one exception (a barechested and shoeless male thief) are fully head-to-toe clothed, all non-mages in full armor.

Agamon · Jul 28, 2014

Here are some SW cosplayers to help with the discussion:

Lots of armor:

Lots of skin:

I rest my case.

Alzrius · Jul 28, 2014

WayneLigon said:
I broke out the old 1E players guide to look at the art and it's very much within the same vein.

I started with Basic D&D and then went straight to 2E, but I went back later and bought the 1E Core Rulebooks, and from what I recall the artwork in them wasn't at all like what's in 5E. Unless I'm misremembering, the 1E PHB didn't have any color pictures, and had a lot of comic (by which I mean "humorous") illustrations.

In terms of the art style being in color and trying to present a more serious (by which I mean "lack of humor") presentation of the game world, I'd say that the 2E PHB is the earliest Core Rulebook to draw a comparison with.

Melkor · Jul 28, 2014

Agamon said:
You have a different opinion. Great. The world would be dull if we all thought the same way.

That is something we agree on.

Agamon said:
Again, you post like I'm saying your players are foolish or something. That's really weird, because I'm not. A player should create the PC they want, the less cookie-cutter, the better, in my opinion. That has zero to do with the specific art in this specific book.

Not at all, I was just posting to illustrate that the three female players in my gaming group like art that I would consider a bit 'sexy' (my word) and not wholly realistic. Inspiring, art that doesn't have to swing the pendulum to boringly conservative - without being non-inclusive or totally sexist. The kind my group would like to see in our game books.

Agamon said:
And I have no problem with chain shirts or scale mail. It's the Red Sonja armor that makes me roll my eyes.

I had to Google Red Sonja armor. +1 AC at best.

Umbran · Jul 28, 2014

Selkirk said:
in a world of fantasy why not have fantastical heroes and heroines?

With all the action, magic, and monsters at the artists' disposal, they heroes and heroines can be fantastical without it being a sex fantasy.

The fantasy fiction is being consumed within a thoroughly mundane world. A mundane world in which large segments of the population are looked down upon for what they are. A mundane world in which people learn what is socially appropriate from just about any media they consume.

Fantasy world or not, the art sends a message relevant to the real world. I am sorry, but your game is happening in a social and cultural context, not in a vacuum.

Agamon · Jul 28, 2014

Melkor said:
I had to Google Red Sonja armor. +1 AC at best.

Ah, see, this is what I meant by chainmail bikini, I was being literal. It doesn't look like we disagree very much after all.

That Elmore pic you posted would be fine, in my opinion (or something like it, that's a tad dated). However, that picture is from a novel cover, and you found it on the internet, which is my other point. One doesn't need to be limited by the art in the game books for inspiration.

am181d · Jul 28, 2014

Selkirk said:
odd that we could handle deities and demigods ...but the kids of today cannot . rpg's (good ones anyways) have always scoffed at rightwing ideas and fundamentalist 'morality'. sadly, now some in the rpg community embrace the retrograde crap of the rightwingers. all under the guise of 'protecting the kids' or making the game 'accessible' or not 'offending' this or that milquetoast sensibility.

You seem to be making the argument that artwork can't be sexist/objectifying and that artwork that features sexualized depictions of women should be seen as empowering.

That is a very... convenient... argument. I don't find it very credible.

Thaumaturge · Jul 28, 2014

Selkirk said:
is it possible that fantasy cultures would dispense with the conservative notions of rightwingers and churchgoers? that the silly 'morality' of a holy roller would not only be mocked but openly disdained. if we start from the lame premise that sexuality is bad (and of course dangerous) we are guaranteed boring and bland products. where are the whores ... the flamboyant artists...the vain showoffs...people just having fun...the sexual deviants. you know, real life!

The people in the fantasy world are not the ones looking at the art. The ones in the real world are. If you got the art you seem to be advocating, I might play. I can guarantee my wife and her sisters wouldn't. Neither would my daughter. That may be an ok trade for you. It isn't for me. You can disagree with our reasoning.

Fortunately, we can both have what we want. People with my sensibilities get some empowering, not sexualized art in the PH(B). You get the internet.

Selkirk said:
odd that we could handle deities and demigods ...but the kids of today cannot . rpg's (good ones anyways) have always scoffed at rightwing ideas and fundamentalist 'morality'. sadly, now some in the rpg community embrace the retrograde crap of the rightwingers. all under the guise of 'protecting the kids' or making the game 'accessible' or not 'offending' this or that milquetoast sensibility.

For you. For me, the things you want impeded enjoyment. I am sorry the art is now impeding your enjoyment. Fortunately, it is a game of imagination, so you can imagine whatever you want. Also, you have the internet.

Selkirk said:
are these women the cause of america's problems? ...or are the problems rooted in constant wars and economic inequality ?

Issues can have multiple causes in complex systems.

Thaumaturge.

Umbran · Jul 28, 2014

Ladies and Gents,

I'd like to remind you that we do not in general allow discussion of real world politics and religion. We do allow discussion of sexism in gaming, because it is directly relevant to gamers. But broadening out to references to "churchgoers", the "identity politics crowd", and "union busting" is not appropriate. So, I've had to delete a post.

EN World recognizes that there are people who are discriminated against, and we aren't big on perpetuating that. Folks are welcome to like a given artistic style, or not like it, of course. But let us not dismiss the objections of those who are demonstrably still getting the short end of the stick, please.

D&D 5E Mearls and Crawford interview with The Mary Sue

The Myopic Sniper

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WayneLigon

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Agamon

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Alzrius

The EN World kitten

Melkor

Explorer

Umbran

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Agamon

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am181d

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Thaumaturge

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Umbran

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