Intelligent Beings

Tonguez · Sep 22, 2019

okay on the side of speculative science

1 - At one point on Earth there were at least 4 or 5 different co-existing Hominins: Neanderthals, Denisovans, Modern Humans, Homo Erectus and Floresiensis (probably a dwarf erectus). Eeven Humans have had both robust archaic forms (eg Cro-Magnons) which differ subtly from us more gracile Modern Humans.

So we know its possible to have different humanoids around and eventually interacting. On Earth those interactions included interbreeding and conflict and lead eventually to the extinction of everything except humans.

2 - However now imagine a much larger world with more resources, the various humanoids develop in relative isolation from each other and all achieve a level of civilization before coming in to direct conflict. In such a World where Neanderthal miners live in huge underground caverns and are known for their forging skills they could have quite possibly continued to survive after contact with the Humans.

3 - add in the effect of magic and horny dragons and meddling gods and you get even more cultural diversity than on earth. Those gracile Homo Erectus archers in the forest were exposed to Fae magic and are now virtually immortal, have pointy ears and become a new subspecies everytime they burp

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doctorbadwolf · Sep 23, 2019

Tonguez said:
okay on the side of speculative science

1 - At one point on Earth there were at least 4 or 5 different co-existing Hominins: Neanderthals, Denisovans, Modern Humans, Homo Erectus and Floresiensis (probably a dwarf erectus). Eeven Humans have had both robust archaic forms (eg Cro-Magnons) which differ subtly from us more gracile Modern Humans.

So we know its possible to have different humanoids around and eventually interacting. On Earth those interactions included interbreeding and conflict and lead eventually to the extinction of everything except humans.

2 - However now imagine a much larger world with more resources, the various humanoids develop in relative isolation from each other and all achieve a level of civilization before coming in to direct conflict. In such a World where Neanderthal miners live in huge underground caverns and are known for their forging skills they could have quite possibly continued to survive after contact with the Humans.

3 - add in the effect of magic and horny dragons and meddling gods and you get even more cultural diversity than on earth. Those gracile Homo Erectus archers in the forest were exposed to Fae magic and are now virtually immortal, have pointy ears and become a new subspecies everytime they burp
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Not only all that, but remember that the “other” hominids weren’t like...killed by homo erectus. Neanderthals just got subsumed via sex, and also may have been less good than us at adapting to changes of environment.

But dnd races are all tool using cooperative people with the same basic communicative capabilities. Looking at IRL history, there is exponentially more trade than war. When dwarfs mine and forge naturally as well as a human who has spent years and years training, human groups are going to look to trade with dwarves for the products of those skills more than they will seek to burn their towns and take their food.

BookBarbarian · Sep 23, 2019

Didn't Ed Greenwood say (even recently in an article on very site) that the FR is quite literally many realms that were forgotten?

Likewise the Witcher novels and games take place in a world that had a "convergence" of worlds in the past which dumped elves from the elf world, vampires from the vampire world, dragons from the dragon world, etc all into one world.

Morrus said:
I think pretty much everything about the Forgotten Realms is improbable. Wizards, dragons, beholders. It feels a bit strange to me to pluck 'number of intelligent creatures' out of that world as the improbable factor.

This is also true.

Umbran · Sep 23, 2019

John Dallman said:
A friend's homebrew world has a different solution: there's one native species, the dragons, who made almost all the other species for various purposes.

In FR and Greyhawk canon, you have gods to do this. You don't have to worry about the question of how this developed, if the answer is "It didn't - life on this planet was created by gods."

You then only have to answer how this situation is sustained. And once again, you can lean into the idea that there are external forces that work to maintain it - Gods (through clerics/druids or directly) bless crops to keep people from starving, they cut down a lot of disease, keep infant and maternal mortality low, and birth rates up, and so on.

Umbran · Sep 23, 2019

Morrus said:
I don’t think scientific concerns (modern or not) apply to any fantasy writing, by definition. It’s rather the point of fantasy.

Yeah, but strangely, Frodo generally walks on the ground, rather than floating away into space, weightless. Fantasy selectively breaks rules, rather than just tossing the entire book out the window all the time. If zero scientific concerns applied, then fantasy would be incomprehensible. We need the world to be mostly like ours to be able to make sense of the thing.

So, we then get to quibble over which rules get broken, and when, and how. Sometimes, these concerns get to become plot points....

Derren · Sep 24, 2019

doctorbadwolf said:
Not only all that, but remember that the “other” hominids weren’t like...killed by homo erectus. Neanderthals just got subsumed via sex, and also may have been less good than us at adapting to changes of environment.

Isn't that what usually happens in most high fantasy worlds? The process is not complete but it is a common theme that elves, dragons, sometimes dwarves, etc. are slowly going extinct and humans take over everything.

doctorbadwolf · Sep 24, 2019

Derren said:
Isn't that what usually happens in most high fantasy worlds? The process is not complete but it is a common theme that elves, dragons, sometimes dwarves, etc. are slowly going extinct and humans take over everything.

Maybe? It’s a thing in some fantasy for sure. I’ve no clue if it’s the standard in worlds that have humans and other races.

Derren · Sep 24, 2019

doctorbadwolf said:
Maybe? It’s a thing in some fantasy for sure. I’ve no clue if it’s the standard in worlds that have humans and other races.

It was a thing in the FR at least nd prompted several gods to intervene (Three Thunder blessing and the Dragonfall or however it was called)

Voadam · Sep 27, 2019

The Oathbound setting has this baked into its backstory. It is seven realms with semidivine ruler/prisoners who reach into a fantasy multiverse and pull in individuals, groups, cities, and armies and plunks them into their themed realms hoping to spur an evolutionary fittest survival contest that will result in someone tough enough to defeat them and take their place bound to the world. So there is a reason for the D&D standard huge number of intelligent races and monsters running around. The world is also full of divine power so things grow quickly and more powerfully so there is even a reason for rapid level development and huge populations.

In my current D&D gothic horror game I have a human focus with most monsters being variants of humans (undead, werewolves, NPCs, etc.) but also allowing in D&D stuff, so the party has a half-elf and a half-orc and elves and dwarves and orcs have history and story significance for the game. The most monsterish things have been Cthulhu mythos type creatures.

Beleriphon · Sep 29, 2019

BookBarbarian said:
Didn't Ed Greenwood say (even recently in an article on very site) that the FR is quite literally many realms that were forgotten?

Several cultures are just that. The ersatz Egyptians, Babylonians and Assyrians are all originally those Earth cultures magically transported to Faerun.

Likewise the Witcher novels and games take place in a world that had a "convergence" of worlds in the past which dumped elves from the elf world, vampires from the vampire world, dragons from the dragon world, etc all into one world.

IIRC The Witcher setting was a pretty standard fantasy world (without humans), that had humans from Earth and monsters from other worlds dumped into via the convergence.

Intelligent Beings

Tonguez

A suffusion of yellow

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle

BookBarbarian

Expert Long Rester

Umbran

Mod Squad

Umbran

Mod Squad

Derren

Hero

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle

Derren

Hero

Voadam

Legend

Beleriphon

Totally Awesome Pirate Brain

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