D&D 5E How autonomous is a Simulacrum?

So, I want to get some advice/feedback on this spell. I know our party will eventually face a powerful arch-mage, and this spell worries me. Basically, it seems like short a 7th-level spell slot, and having only half the HP, we will end up fighting TWO arch-mages.

In reviewing the spell description, it almost seems like this spell isn't "smart" enough to really act without being commanded.

Am I missing something?

No, you're not missing anything regarding the power of the spell. Yes, you can expend a 7th level spell to get a 9th level spell. Yes the simulacrum can act and react independently.

I do think it needs to be nerfed to not allow spell slots of 6th level or higher.

But do note that the spell takes 12 hours to cast and the simulacrum requires clothing and equipment.

Well, from the text it seems to imply the simulacrum obeys your commands, but I wonder at what level it can do this?



I can see relatively simple commands (defend me, cast this spell, kill so-and-so, etc.) but what about "Pretend to be me while I am away." Would it know enough to follow your routine and such?

Because otherwise I don't see why an encounter with an arch-mage would not basically be against two? And frankly, I am thinking we will be walking into a TPK in the end. We can try to dispel it, but if it and the arch-mage are both there to counterspell us, our chances are bleak.

Also, I've read some thread about simulacrums creating simulacrums, etc. and it makes me wonder about this passage:



Notice it is active "duplicates you created with this spell". Well, you can't have more than one, can you? As soon as you make one, it would be destroyed if you made another. If your first simulacrum made one, you gain two 9th-level slots (very abusive as you say, particularly considering wish). Further, the simulacrums can cast wish in such a way that they risk the 33% change of never casting it again--because they never can anyway.

He is smart enough to ask a share for treasure and to be controlled by another player.

For the first: yeah, you get get to fight two of them. Try to find out which is the weakest and crush that one early. A lot of AoE will go a long way (or at least make them burn spell slots on counterspells) since the clones have half the original's hp.

For the multi-clone part: if the simulacrum is cloning the original caster, it gets replaced by the clone. At best that resets its hit points.

If, hypothetically, the simulacrum were to make a clone of itself, you would have three wizards: one with full hp, one with 1/2 hp, and one with 1/4 hp - and since wizards aren't hp bulwarks to begin with, 1/4 hp is not likely to be a lot. (I think 67 at 13th level with +1 con and taking average hp per level. So the clone would have 33, and the second clone would have 17. This results in a theoretical limit of about 8.)

That's not a great strategy for a fight (catching them in an AoE will reduce numbers fast), but can be used to pull some shenanigans with multiple wishes.

It's a really goo spell, and very abusable.

I am not as much worried about the HP to kill them as I am the opening salvo of spells and fighting a string of them that will deplete our resources. As I see it, we could end up with:

BBEG (say 150 hp)
Sim 1 (75 hp) - 1 7th level slot
Sim 2 (37 hp) - 2 7th level slots
Sim 3 (18 hp) - 2 7th level slots, 1 8th level slot
Sim 4 (9 hp) - 2 7th level slots, -1 8th level slot, -1 9th level slot

For 5 "archmages" with at least 1-6th level spells, and a few upper level ones to boot.

All have the same spell save DC (assume 19 or 20). Just using something like Chain Lightning, which does 10d8 damage, means each PC in a 5-character party could take 20-40d8 damage in one round. If a PC makes 2 out of 4 saves, that still averages 135 damage for the opening hit.

Mix it up with Chain Lightning, Cone of Cold, Cloudkill, or the fact that 4 out of the 5 could open up with meteor swarm... and you have 80d6 bludgeoning and 80d6 fire... 280 damage even with all successful saves-- from up to a mile away... That would kill even your average 20th-level barbarian.

Oh, and all while they are invisible, popping in and out with loads of more spells to do a whole lot more.

This is why I said in the other thread Wizards are the most powerful characters in the game--no doubt.

How the hell can we deal with that???

EDIT: LOL given the idea of having Twinned spells, you could have a lot more simulacrums (as many as 6 with a 9th-level slot) plus the original. If they all cast Meteor Swarm that is 490 damage even with making all saves.

dnd4vr said:

I can see relatively simple commands (defend me, cast this spell, kill so-and-so, etc.) but what about "Pretend to be me while I am away." Would it know enough to follow your routine and such?

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It knows the skills, proficiencies, spells memorised that morning and so forth of the creature it mimics. Heavily implying it has the same memory, drawn from the same experiences (the XP earnt to get to that level by the original) up to the point of its creation.

Its a bit weird if it remembers the spells the original memorised that day, and remembers the lessons learnt in improving its skills and learning feats etc over the originals life span, but doesn't remember how to get around its own home.

Also it has the same mental stats (meaning it can reason with its Intelligence and has insight and willpower thanks to its Wisdom).

Even if it doesnt have the memories of the original, if its a copy of the caster, it must have knowledge of the Simulacrum spell, including knowledge of its own restrictions and limitations imposed by that spell. If it knows the spell, it knows what the spell does (it's also almost certainly proficient in Arcana).

For example it would know that as a simulacrum, it cant recover spell slots when used, and is also aware it is friendly to the original 'real' caster, and also why (the spell makes it loyal).

Presuming it had access to Wish, barring an express command from the original not to cast the spell, it would (due to it's likely genius Intelligence score of 20) promptly cast that Wish spell (risking burnout and possible monkey paw) worded along the lines of: 'I wish the restrictions of the Simulacrum spell were no longer applicable to me.'

AI is a killer of a thing to mess with.

This is why Wish is not one of the spells I would have prepared unless I had a specific purpose for the simulacrum to cast it.

dnd4vr said:

This is why Wish is not one of the spells I would have prepared unless I had a specific purpose for the simulacrum to cast it.

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Havent we all seen enough 'Rouge AI goes crazy' films in our lifetime to know better? HAL 2000, Skynet, Alien, I Robot, Bladerunner etc etc etc

I shudder at the thought of creating a genius level AI (the simulacrum, Int 20) armed with reality altering power (Wish).

You would want to have some very strong Aasminovian laws in place to stop the thing going rogue and triggering the singularity.

Probably why the Realm is not full of Simulacrums. Smart (Int 20) and Experienced (level 17+) Wizards with Wish, know better than to create AI's armed with such magic

At the end of the day, there is more than enough logical wriggle room for a smart DM to make a PC trying to abuse this spell by creating a wish loop etc a total nightmare.

Flamestrike said:

Havent we all seen enough 'Rouge AI goes crazy' films in our lifetime to know better? HAL 2000, Skynet, Alien, I Robot, Bladerunner etc etc etc.

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I object to this base slander. HAL was not a crazy rogue AI, but was just logically obeying its instructions regarding the relative priorities of completing its mission and protecting the lives of its crew. It's not the poor computer's fault those orders were a bit, ah, careless.

As for the original question, I would say a simulacrum should be able to act autonomously as if it were the original spellcaster if specifically ordered to do so, but they have no free will or desires of their own.

Also, it was foolish for 5E to make a simulacrum the same level as the wizard. It'd have been far better to make them lower level than the original like in earlier editions rather than just having lower hit points (i.e. the 3E simulacrum spell, which creates a duplicate with half the level/Hit Dice). After all, with many D&D creatures their power depends more on their special abilities rather than how much damage they can tank.

Worse, simulacrum can duplicate any creature. A smart wizard (and they're all smart) could create simulacrum of a lot of other useful monsters, not just a copy of themselves.

How is the 5E spell's wording about "currently active duplicates" supposed to work anyway? The very fact it says "duplicates" in plural implies the spell can produce multiple copies of creatures or a single copy each of multiple creatures. Does that mean the wizard can have as many simulacrums as they like simply by putting them all in an inactive state whenever a new one is created? That would mean a wizard could break all their simulacrums out of storage simultaneously so long as they're not actually in the process of casting a simulacrum spell. It could have been phrased better.

Yes I know. Rulings not rules.