So what? Is it not "logical" to have the possibility of an Orc/Half-Orc that has a once-in-a-million genetic disorder that causes them to be weaker than the average human, or as weak as the weakest human (8 with point buy/standard array, 3 with rolling)? How is that illogical or impossible? Again, the PCs are the exception. As I showed in the character I linked, having an orc/half-orc character that is weaker than even the average human can tell a compelling story, more compelling than "oh, I guess once you move to a human settlement, you're the same as the average human, and from their viewpoint you're completely average". That harms the story of "castoff from their society because they're so weak that they are still disadvantaged in a Human society" that the linked character tells.
Sure. Maybe most weak orcs are stronger than most weak humans. However, players aren't playing "most orcs" or even "most weak orcs", they're playing the exceptional individual that has the potential to gain demigod-level power. I see no reason why the Orcish version of Raistlin has to be more healthy than Raistlin. PCs are exceptional, even if that means in some cases they're exceptionally weak in comparison to the average human.
So what? Is it not "logical" to have the possibility of an Orc/Half-Orc that has a once-in-a-million genetic disorder that causes them to be weaker than the average human, or as weak as the weakest human (8 with point buy/standard array, 3 with rolling)?
If you wish to dismiss it, that is fine, but that 'logical world building' consideration is central to the entire point.
Orc's are stronger than Elves. The strongest Orc should be stronger than the Strongest Elf, at Level 1, and the Weakest Orc, should be stronger than the weakest Elf, at Level 1.
If you dont care for the concept, great, congratulations, as you already get the system you wish and you can proceed to do whatever you want with ASI.
That does not mean the point doesnt exist, only that you dont care.
If you wish to dismiss it, that is fine, but that 'logical world building' consideration is central to the entire point.
Orc's are stronger than Elves. The strongest Orc should be stronger than the Strongest Elf, at Level 1, and the Weakest Orc, should be stronger than the weakest Elf, at Level 1.
If you dont care for the concept, great, congratulations, as you already get the system you wish and you can proceed to do whatever you want with ASI.
That does not mean the point doesnt exist, only that you dont care.
This is only works if "having a higher strength score" is a fundamentally biological aspect of the orc race so strong that it can't be defeated by genetics or magic.
There have been humans shorter than 3 feat tall. And many humans are around 4 feet. Biology is weird
You wouldhave to define orc strength as so powerful that it overcomes all biology. Meaning the weakest orc have "superior melee accuracy, carrying and lifting capacity, and athleticism" than the weakest elf no matter what.
Which is fine. However it limits you to 6 aspects to define race if you don't go beyond that and keep all other races off that racial aspect. And this is how orcs became humans with the Strong hat if the world builder isn't savvy.
It's logical but without a skilled writer and designer, it can be "boring and logical".
EDIT: And I not saying anything is wrong with that.
I mean that's how it worksin Warhammer Fantasy. All orcs are stronger than the average human. Any orc born too weak would be killed by other orcs for being too different.
Deviation within a species is a major theme as most races either see it as corruption or a sign of weakness.
This is only works if "having a higher strength score" is a fundamentally biological aspect of the orc race so strong that it can't be defeated by genetics or magic.
Magic, absolutely, and again we are not saying that EVERY elf must be weaker than an Orc, we are talking about the average representation of the populations.
I'm not discussing real world variation across our species.
I appreciate your viewpoint. But just claiming they were placed there for race/class combos instead of natural or inherent tendencies, doesn't make it so. Look at the language the PHB uses. It is clear it was geared towards biology. For example, Aasimar has a charisma bonus - because we picture angels charismatic.
You haven't actually read the DMG, have you? Because the "how to make a race" section of chapter 9 (page 286) specifically says "Since we want aasimar to be effective paladins and clerics, it makes sense to improve their Wisdom and Charisma instead of Intelligence and Charisma."
Also note that the DMG is specifically saying that you want that ASI to be effective. So no matter what Scribe et al like to claim, the actual game wants you to put the +2 in your class's main attributes.
(I don't picture angels as charismatic. I go for more traditional "wheels of fire covered in eyes" and "many-headed beasts covered in eyes" type. And I'll always pick a D&D bestial angel like a couatl or shedu or lamassu or kirin over a bishounen angel, any day.)
Their description: hair that shines like polished metal, eyes sparkling like gems, and the fact that they have golden halos should add something to charisma. By the way, these are things they are born with.
Wrong edition. The attribute is Charisma, not Comeliness.
From the PHB, page 12, Charisma. Measures: Confidence, eloquence, leadership.
I don't see "appearance" anywhere in that list.
But speaking of appearance, as with tieflings, they've been horribly limited since 2e. They had a very interesting NPC aasimar assassin in one of the books who was clearly descended from a planetar, because she was green and bald. The Planewalker's Handbook said that some aasimar could have eagle- or lion-like legs, "regal looking tails." They also got +1 Strength and +1 Wisdom, and -2 Con--although you could choose to swap out Strength for +1 Cha instead.
Well first, let me commend you on your description, because I actually laughed out loud. It was very good. And I am a bit jealous I have never thought of it. Thank you for making me laugh. As far as building the character, with standard array or point buy, you are correct. He would have a 10 strength. That said, I doubt most DMs would have stopped you from not placing the +2 in strength and tossing it aside. But the point is, you can't make the character with point buy or standard array.
And thus penalizing my character by not letting me better in some other way.
But that is one of the benefits of rolling for stats. You get much different arrays than you normally would and have to think about what they mean. Even if you assign rather than roll in order, the numbers can be so unusual as to really make things interesting. As we all know Raistlin was created when the player rolled a 3 for Con. You can't get that with point buy/stat array either.
Both of these builds maximizes on their strengths, and does exactly what the PHB tells a player to do, make intelligence as high as you can get it, and then focus on dex or con. In this build, both groups have an overall +8. The elf gets that mythical +3 to int, the dwarf does not. But the dwarf can choose to focus on the con, which gives him that mythical +3. That adds up to a lot of hit points, 36 to be exact, by level 12 (with hill dwarf).
Dwarf: Str 10, Dex 8, Con 13, Int 17, Wis 13, Cha 14 (nice guy, tends to bump into things and drop spell components, not at all good with a hammer which is why he got shunted into Magic School). (+1 Wis)
Elf: Str 13, Dex 12, Con 10, Int 17, Wis 14, Cha 9 (jerk, although smart enough to keep his mouth shut before he says something too rude, likes to practice swordplay and so has some decent physical skills, smart enough to stay out of a fight). (+1 Cha)
See how, other than their Intelligence, they are both completely different?
Also, why claim that characters are going to be the same if you let them put the +2, when you say you focus on Dex or Con (as the PHB says to do). That would ensure the stats are similar, because it means you're always dumping the same stats as well.
Maybe that's where the disconnect is. You assume that I am also always dumping the same stats as you are.
Maybe I didn't make myself clear in my earlier post. Those weren't my arguments. They were arguments used as defaults to encourage floating ASIs. Hence, why the word "you" (not you personally) is used. And it sounds like your table is excellent. Full of good players. But how is their charisma or strength or intelligence not define them as a person (their characters, that is)? I don't know how someone plays a 16 intelligence character without at least trying to seem smart, or an 18 charisma character without putting on some swagger. (If the table only roleplays in second person, I get it. But first person, I don't?)
The table RPs primarily in 1st person, especially since two of the players are avid LARPers. But the reasons that the attributes aren't that important are as follows: Attributes are mostly mechanical. Ideals/Personality Traits/Bonds/Flaws are far more important than attributes (and in earlier editions, a well-developed personality and backstory did the same thing). And playing a smart character doesn't mean "seeming" smart. You don't have to use big words to RP an intelligent person. You don't have to put on swagger to RP a charismatic person. There are a hundred ways to play any one attribute.
My other claim is, players don't want them because they want a character that has the +3, not +2. The two sides clash. In my humble opinion, I think the side that wanted to get rid of ASIs sees that it removes one characteristic that separates the races from one another, but they feel it doesn't hurt the feel of their game. In fact, they think it will help the feel of their game. The other side is the exact opposite. It hurts the feel of their game by making the playable races more alike.
So let's say you're right. Say that everyone really wants that +3 in their stat of choice.
Why is this bad?
Can you actually prove it hurts the feel of the game? Can you prove it makes the races more alike? Or is just a feeling with no actual basis in reality? Would my dwarf and elf above be better if they were more like every other dwarf and elf?
And more importantly, if we're playing together, how would my stats affect how you play?
Anyway. Here's my weak orc. It's for Level Up, so it's a bit different than o5e. While making playtest characters a while ago, I kept imagining a vast empire of dragon lords ruling over the populace (as either benevolent or cruel dictators), so I built this character to fit in that setting concept. Warlocks in LU can choose between Int, Wis, and Cha as their spellcasting attribute. He's a weak individual whose parents ran a thermopolium (and thus he was raised as a short-order cook) that was always being exploited by a powerful dragonborn captain.
Purely by accident, I had decided the bit about his background and that he was going to be an Int-based warlock before I picked the Artisan background (which is what could be used for a cook). That background gives +1 Int, +1 floating. The floating bonus was put in Wisdom.
Mazar Heritage: Orc • Culture: Tyrannized • Background: Artisan • Destiny: Revenge Level, Class, Archetype: 1st-level warlock (alienist) Str 8 (-1), Dex 12 (+1), Con 13 (+1), Int 16 (+3, save +5), Wis 14 (+2, save +4), Cha 12 (+1) Size: Medium Speed: 30 ft. Max HP: 9 Proficiency Bonus: +2 Maneuver DC: 11 Skills: Arcana (specialization: dragons), Culture, Deception, Insight (specialization: sensing emotions), Investigation, Persuasion, Stealth Tool Proficiencies: Cook’s utensils, Playing cards Armor and Weapons Proficiencies: Light armor; Dagger, darts, slings, quarterstaffs, light crossbows Languages: Common, Draconic, Elf
Traits Alienist: Alien Curse – I can use a bonus action to place a curse on a creature I see within 30 feet. The curse lasts for 1 minute and ends early if the target or I die or I am incapacitated. While a creature is cursed, when I deal damage to it, it takes +1d4 psychic damage. Cloak and Dagger. Whenever I or an ally I can see fails a Sleight of Hand or Stealth check, I can use my reaction to spend inspiration and undo the consequences of that failed check. Connection: A dragonborn captain who exploited my parent’s food stand. Darkvision: 60 ft. Expanded Spell List: Bewilderment Heavy Lifter: I count as Large when determining what I can carry, push, drag, or lift. Mighty Attacks: When I score a crit with a melee weapon attack, I can roll one additional damage die. Saving Face (1/rest): If I miss an attack roll or fail an ability check, I can gain a bonus to the roll equal to the number of allies I can see within 30 feet (max +3). Scars of the Scourge: I have resistance to lightning damage. Served Cold. I gain inspiration whenever I outwit a foe without the use of Deception or Persuasion checks. Trade Mark: When in a city or town, I have access to a fully-stocked workshop with everything I need to ply my trade.
Attacks Kitchen Knife (Dagger): +3 to hit, reach 5 ft., 1d4 piercing. If I am wielding a dagger in both hands, I can use my bonus action to attack with this weapon. Eldritch Blast (Eldritch Disturbance): Range 60. Target must make a Wis save (half damage on success) or take 1d10 force damage. Force Punch (Spell, 2 SP): If I succeed on a melee spell attack roll against a creature or object within 5 feet of me, I inflict 3d8 force damage.
Spells Known Spell Save DC: 13. Spell Attack Bonus: +5. Spell Points: 2. Cantrips: mage hand, mending (from heritage), pestilence 1st Level (2 points): charm person, color spray, force punch, sleep
Elves are preternaturally strong. Their connection to fey magic makes them so, due to a deal once made with the Emperor of Ogres. They don't look it because their strength is magic, not muscle.
Halflings are preternaturally strong. It's because they were once humans who were squished to half their size by a trickster god, but the god made it so that didn't affect their muscles (because it's funnier that way). They're actually very muscular, but on them, it looks like flab. There's no such thing as a halfling with a six pack, but a halfling with a beer belly is a real powerhouse. A svelte halfling is a physically weak, though.
"Logical world building" only works when there's no magic, gods, or other supernatural entities and forces that can supersede evolution or physics.
Elves are preternaturally strong. Their connection to fey magic makes them so, due to a deal once made with the Emperor of Ogres. They don't look it because their strength is magic, not muscle.
Halflings are preternaturally strong. It's because they were once humans who were squished to half their size by a trickster god, but the god made it so that didn't affect their muscles (because it's funnier that way). They're actually very muscular, but on them, it looks like flab. There's no such thing as a halfling with a six pack, but a halfling with a beer belly is a real powerhouse. A svelte halfling is a physically weak, though.
Fantastic job at representing the world building which would allow for a racial +2 Str to Elves, and a racial +2 Str to Halfling, unless they dont meet a Con value of some type, which would impose a penalty to Str.
You should run with that, it sounds like a much more interesting system than floating +2/+1.
