Which edition had the best dragons?

What was this thread about again?

I've relooked at some things....and I'm not sure I know the answer. Early dragons were dangerous because early PCs died more easily. But, IMO, 4e and 5e (for older dragons) gave them more actions so the action economy didn't stink.

In every edition Dragons are a deadly threat.
Visually, I loved the Lockwoood design of 3e Dragons that continues on.
I also appreciate the legendary and lair actions of 5e.

For mechanically encountering a dragon I like late 4e dragons the best. Thematic solo mechanics, combat roles, and good math are great combos. I also prefer my dragons to be great dangerous beasts mechanically, not primarily magicians.

For variety and descriptions I really liked 3e with the OGL opening up a lot of creativity.

Tiger-striped chromatic dragons from the Lethal Lexicon are fairly evocative.

My favorite dragon picture though is probably from 1e:

BrokenTwin said:

4E introduced the catastrophic dragons, which were always my favorite, so that's where my vote is going. Mechanics-wise they had problems (as did pretty much every solo monster until way too late in the 4E design cycle), but thematically and visually? Yes please.

Click to expand...

What late-cycle solo fixes are you referring to?

overgeeked said:

What late-cycle solo fixes are you referring to?

Click to expand...

Early 4e solos had not always really figured out how to deal with the action economy yet in a solo fight.

The 4e MM solo purple worm for instance is just a big monster with a single target attack. The closest it gets to a group dynamic solo mechanic is if it spends a round to swallow a creature for no damage then it can next round bite another while doing acid to the swallowed one.

Purple Worm Level 16 Solo Soldier
Huge natural beast (blind) XP 7,000
Initiative +13 Senses Perception +10; blindsight 10, tremorsense 20
HP 780; Bloodied 390
AC 33 (26 against swallowed creatures); Fortitude 34, Reflex 30,
Will 29
Immune gaze, illusion
Saving Throws +5
Speed 6, burrow 3 (tunneling)
Action Points 2
m Bite (standard; at-will)
Reach 3; +21 vs. Reflex; 2d8 + 7 damage, plus the target is grabbed (until escape). The purple worm cannot make bite attacks while grabbing a creature, but it can use clamping jaws.
M Clamping Jaws (standard; at-will)
If a purple worm begins its turn with a target grabbed in its jaws, it makes an attack against the grabbed creature: +21 vs. Reflex; 2d8 + 7 damage. Miss: Half damage.
M Swallow (standard; at-will)
The purple worm tries to swallow a bloodied Medium or smaller creature it is grabbing: +21 vs. Fortitude; the target is swallowed. The swallowed target is inside the purple worm and is dazed and restrained until it is no longer swallowed. The swallowed target has line of sight and line of effect only to the purple worm, and no creature has line of sight or line of effect to the swallowed target. The only attacks the swallowed target can make are basic attacks. At the start of each of the purple worm’s turns, the swallowed target takes 10 damage plus 10 acid damage. When the purple worm dies, the target is no longer swallowed and can escape as a move action, appearing in the purple worm’s former space.
Alignment Unaligned Languages —
Str 24 (+15) Dex 16 (+11) Wis 14 (+10) Con 20 (+13) Int 2 (+4) Cha 4 (+5)

The later cycle 4e essentials Monster Vault Purple Worm has some more options as a solo. It can minor action stinger, triggered reaction thrash, and get an extra minor when bloodied. It interacts with more of the party during the solo fight:

Adult Purple Worm Level 14 Solo Brute
Huge natural beast (blind) XP 5,000
HP 560; Bloodied 280 Initiative +12
AC 28, Fortitude 28, Reflex 26, Will 24 Perception +11
Speed 6, burrow 6 (tunneling) Blindsight 10, tremorsense 10
Immune blinded, gaze effects
Saving Throws +5; Action Points 2
TRAITS
Ponderous
The purple worm can take immediate actions while stunned, dazed, or dominated.
Blooded Frenzy
While bloodied, the purple worm takes an extra minor action during its turn.
STANDARD ACTIONS
􀀵 Bite ✦ At-Will
Attack: Melee 3 (one creature); +19 vs. AC
Hit: 4d8 + 8 damage.
􀀬 Devour Whole (acid) ✦ At-Will
Attack: Melee 3 (one creature); +17 vs. Fortitude
Hit: 3d10 + 7 damage, and the target is swallowed (escape DC 21). While swallowed, the target does not occupy a square and has neither line of sight nor line of effect to anything except the worm and other creatures swallowed by the worm; in addition, nothing has line of sight or line of effect to the target except other creatures swallowed by the worm. If the target attacks the worm using a close or an area attack, that attack targets all other creatures swallowed by the worm. While swallowed, the target takes 30 acid damage at the end of its turn. When the effect ends or the worm drops to 0 hit points, the target appears in an unoccupied square of its choice adjacent to the worm.
MINOR ACTIONS
􀀬 Fling ✦ At-Will
Attack: Melee 3 (one creature); +17 vs. Fortitude
Hit: 3d10 + 8 damage, and the purple worm slides the target up to 4 squares.
􀀬 Poison Stinger (poison) ✦ At-Will
Attack: Melee 3 (one creature); +19 vs. AC
Hit: 2d8 damage, and ongoing 15 poison damage (save ends).
Regurgitate ✦ At-Will
Effect: One creature swallowed by the purple worm appears in a square of the worm’s choice within 4 squares of it. That creature is no longer swallowed and takes 3d10 + 8 damage.
TRIGGERED ACTIONS
􀀬 Thrash ✦ At-Will
Trigger: An attack hits the purple worm.
Attack (Immediate Reaction): Melee 3 (one or two creatures); +17 vs. Reflex
Hit: 3d12 + 5 damage, and the purple worm pushes the target up to 6 squares.
Str 25 (+14) Dex 20 (+12) Wis 19 (+11) Con 20 (+12) Int 2 (+3) Cha 4 (+4)
Alignment unaligned Languages —

The Draconomicon was early in the 4e cycle so the dragons from there generally were not as developed in their solo mechanics as later cycle solos.

Yeah, the early solos tended to have massive action economy problems, and would frequently end up locked down unable to do anything while the party boringly whittled down its massive hit point pool. Not fun or engaging for anybody at the table. Later solos tended to have much better action economies and ways to deal with being locked down.

Undrave said:

Note that in 4e, you get a Reaction by TURN and not by ROUND, so that dragon could use it's tail against the whole party if they all moved on their turn.

The claws and bites already have a reach of melee 3. Also, 4e doesn't make distinction between mundane damage. A sword, a spear and a hammer just inflict damage.

Click to expand...

That's not correct.
You get a Immediate Action (either Immediate Reaction or Immediate Interrupt) each ROUND. And you get an Opportunity Action each TURN.

You are mixing up Immediate Actions and Opportunity Actions.

cavalier973 said:

The 4e Essentials dragons could act twice in the first round. They rolled initiative, then added 10, so they probably acted first, no matter what.

Click to expand...

Not just the first round, every round. In fact, unless they have charge as on of their instinctive actions, quite likely every round but the first round (note that the Red Dragon posted on the first page has only melee attacks for instinctive actions: Not much use when nobody has had time to close yet!

_
glass.