Chaosmancer
Legend
Which I literally acknowledge in the post. Thank you for reading it all
D&D General "I make a perception check."
Which I literally acknowledge in the post. Thank you for reading it all
iserith
Magic Wordsmith
Chaosmancer
Legend
I am not okay with being forced to take an action to avoid a bad thing happening, that then directly causes the bad thing I'm trying to avoid to happen to me.
Everyone knows bad things happen to people. That isn't the point I'm making. The point I'm making is that if my action is declared with the intent to avoid a trap, causing that action to trigger the trap, is a crappy thing to do.
Charlaquin
Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
So I can clearly imagine what’s happening in the fiction and assess whether or not the thing the character is doing can bring about the player’s desired outcome and what the associated risks might be.
I think you are exaggerating the inability to describe the character’s fictional behavior because you don’t want to do so. It really isn’t hard to say something like “my character rifles through the drawers in the desk” or whatever. People just don’t want to because they’re afraid they’ll fail. Which makes it seem crazy to me that they want to roll dice instead because rolling dice can also fail! You’re actually far more likely to succeed if you just use your imagination to picture the fictional world and imagine what your character might do in it to try to being about your desired outcome, and then tell me what you’re imagining. Which players at my table who are hesitant about this approach usually catch onto pretty quickly, and then take to it like fish to water.
It doesn’t tell me what they want to convince him of (or convince him to do? Again, unclear), or what the character does to try to convince him of (or to do) it, which is information I need to assess if it can work or not.
Not without either assuming or establishing for the player what the character is actually doing to try and achieve that intent. Which it’s fine if you’re comfortable doing, but I am not.
I determine if a check is even needed, and if so, what the DC should be, based on what they say. So that’s kind of similar.
Alright, you do you.
Maxperson
Morkus from Orkus
I would run some of that a bit differently.
Player: "I remind the king of his ancestor's bravery."
Me: "Your words have an effect on the king and for several moments he is deep in thought. Second sentence
insert some response appropriate for the king and that reminder in that situation)"While I have no goal to go on, those words are enough for me to roleplay the effect of them on the king. It may or may not have whatever desired effect the player was going for, but didn't speak, but something will happen. I'm not going to ask for more and if the player doesn't get the desired outcome, perhaps he will realize that next time he should provide further detail.
Player: "I try to convince the king."
Me: "How?"
Player: "I diplomacy."
Me: "Are you okay?"
None of my players would ever try to speak that way, so it would be a sign that something serious is wrong.
Player: "I want that king to listen to us."
Me: "The king hasn't been listening to a word you have said and he doesn't seem interested in listening to you. He continues to talk over you when you try to speak."
Again, there's enough there to give a response, even if it's not the one the players are looking for.
Charlaquin
Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
Ok? That is unfortunate but entirely beyond my control.
GMforPowergamers
Legend
again you mischaracterize it... WE BOTH HAVE STORIES EMERGE FROM PLAY IN RETROSPECT... that is why if the players don't care about a detail it isn't important... cause the ending story didn't have that detail.
'why didn't harry or Herminie get a gun, they were muggle born they had to know about them?"
"Because that wasn't the story"
now in MY games if Harry and/or Herminie try to get a gun it BECOMES part of the story and if they don't then it DIDN'T become part of the story...
do you understand yet?
If my players describe "I remind the king of his grandfathers' heroism and bravery" that just became an important part of the story... in a novel that scene is played out on page XX in Chapter X
If my players just roll persuasion, then the book jumps from chapter X-1 where they enter the kings chamber to ask for help to Chapter X where they and the king are suiting up for battle... it is then up to the reader to infer that they succussed.
again... stop assuming things... this is true at our games, and just because someone wants to roll a skill and doesn't give a good way it should work doesn't change that.
imagine if I said the same about YOUR games... "Oh at our tables story matters" implying that it doesn't at your game.
I agree... and if they make a good skill check (or maybe just have a good skill no role needed) they DO convince him... or maybe they don't... maybe no matter what they say, what they roll, what skill they call this king is not helping... or maybe they just need to give him a nudge (with Rp detail or not)
no... it 100% is not always possible.
the elven king who hates halfbreeds and orcs will never listen to the best laid argument of the half orc with a -1 total mod to social skills... never, no chance. it just is not always possible. Now if the best most convincing player is playing that half orc and he perfectly blends RP and leverages knowladge of the kings goals and flaws and bonds... still a fail.
if on the other hand they send the shy player with the 20 cha elven warlock with prof in all social skills in and that player says "I have no idea what to say but I am asking him to come help us" that now has a chance... even without a how... heck since he is so social in game and the right race for the bigot king I may not even ask him to roll...
what the line of argument is doesn't matter... it's 'yadaa yadda yadda... skip' to us
Maxperson
Morkus from Orkus
By RAW consequences are not the only, or even the most important criteria for a roll, though. The outcome being in doubt is the first thing to look at. If someone takes an action that removes doubt of the outcome, consequences don't matter as far as a roll is concerned. It auto succeeds or auto fails, however the lack of doubt is manifesting. Then the consequences happen, meaningful or not. If the outcome is in doubt, THEN we look at the consequences to see if they have meaning. If no, no roll. If yes, roll.
iserith
Magic Wordsmith
Seriously funny.
