Why do RPGs have rules?

Okay, I definitely do not mean to embrace any great flattening. However, I also want to look closely at the details. Would you agree that there is a necessary matching to be done? Someone has to say that this description matches to this rule. SFAIK that's not possible to automate in TTRPG except in artificially narrow cases (e.g. the only permitted descriptions are those exactly matching a rule), but as I called attention to it can itself can be governed by rules (and thence the great unflattening!)

I feel like your concerns are really as to the latter, not the former, right? I ought to acknowledge the unflattening done by those rules that govern the matching of description to rule; and I do! That's distinct from giving up the by my lights proper observation that the description must be matched to a rule (and that ultimately someone decides that.)

“The description.” Of what? Its not clear to me.

And I’m assuming “the description” isn’t idiosyncratic to a particular game, here? You’re applying “the description” (whatever that might be…I’m assuming this a stable phenomenon you’re envisioning…some routine thing that occurs in all games?) across all games I hope?

Well, that seems to restate my concern, because I'm aiming to look at what rules do, not what procedures do. A procedure or play loop will typically involve multiple rules, right? It could be that it's wrong to try to look at what individual rules do, but that would be quite a different criticism. It would be to say that we should only look at procedures, rather than that rules are procedures.

Maybe I am influenced by software terms. When I say procedural, I don't mean a single rule: I mean a series of rules. Perhaps in a different domain the meaning of procedure really is the same as rule.

To be clear, I’m not restating your concern (which isn’t clear to me what this concern is…is it the “matching a description to a rule” idea above?). I’m (a) differentiating procedures and rules (procedures are a particular subset of rules), (b) confirming pemerton’s historical usage of procedures vs rules, (c) and agreeing with that usage.

From wider reading of game studies I would say that mechanics are usually taken to be actions players can take to change the game state. That's similar to your definition, but not identical. As an example, Miguel Sicart defines game mechanics as "methods invoked by agents for interacting with the game world." In esports commentary, if a player has "good mechanics", it means they grasp exactly how those methods work and are adept at employing them. The first line of your definition in isolation is close to how I am thinking of rules.

All of the above that you’ve expressed looks to me to be mapping computer game design philosophy onto TTRPGs. I don’t think a wider reading of game mechanics (whether it be in physical sport, computer games broadly, or esports specifically) is helpful to TTRPG discussion or design.

Take your “mechanics are actions players can take to change the gamestate above.” Ok, that omits Wandering Monster rolls, Camp/Town Event rolls, Monster Reaction rolls, Blades in the Dark Fortune rolls, NPC/Threat/Obstacle rolls during Contests or Conflicts, etc. That is a glaring omission of content generating dice rolls, which players don’t roll, that significantly change the gamestate. Binning them outside of “mechanics” seems like something computer game derived philosophy would do because these things are automated or fixed in that medium; therefore not a part of the user’s experience and not a fundamental, dynamism-infusing part of play as they are in TTRPGs.

So, in the same way that I wouldn’t map a conversation about a pitcher’s delivery mechanics, or a BJJ player’s arm drag and top game mechanics, or a basketball player’s shooting mechanics, I don’t think its correct or helpful to use computer game design philosophy of esports jargon to attempt to capture either the fullness or novelty of TTRPG mechanics.
 

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clearstream

(He, Him)
“The description.” Of what? Its not clear to me.

And I’m assuming “the description” isn’t idiosyncratic to a particular game, here? You’re applying “the description” (whatever that might be…I’m assuming this a stable phenomenon you’re envisioning…some routine thing that occurs in all games?) across all games I hope?
Yes. Other ways I have seen it put is as propositions and factual predicates. I was thinking of language such as "player describes what their character does." I'm not wedded to the particular word.

To be clear, I’m not restating your concern (which isn’t clear to me what this concern is…is it the “matching a description to a rule” idea above?). I’m (a) differentiating procedures and rules (procedures are a particular subset of rules), (b) confirming pemerton’s historical usage of procedures vs rules, (c) and agreeing with that usage.
So by your lights, there can be a procedure containing just one rule. Why call that a procedure exactly? Isn't rule clearer?

All of the above that you’ve expressed looks to me to be mapping computer game design philosophy onto TTRPGs. I don’t think a wider reading of game mechanics (whether it be in physical sport, computer games broadly, or esports specifically) is helpful to TTRPG discussion or design.
I'm cautious of mapping computer game design philosophies onto TTRPGs. However, TTRPG mechanics are normally easily deconstructed into multiple rules. Can you say what problem you see with understanding a mechanic as a compound rule? Or supposing we take mechanic and rule to be synonyms, what do you propose for compound rules that collectively fabricate methods?

Take your “mechanics are actions players can take to change the gamestate above.” Ok, that omits Wandering Monster rolls, Camp/Town Event rolls, Monster Reaction rolls, Blades in the Dark Fortune rolls, NPC/Threat/Obstacle rolls during Contests or Conflicts, etc. That is a glaring omission of content generating dice rolls, which players don’t roll, that significantly change the gamestate. Binning them outside of “mechanics” seems like something computer game derived philosophy would do because these things are automated or fixed in that medium; therefore not a part of the user’s experience and not a fundamental, dynamism-infusing part of play as they are in TTRPGs.
Well, as I have repeatedly said that I don't think we should say mechanics when we mean rules, this would be a problem for those saying mechanics :p Which is to say, in defining mechanics as compound rules, I am reserving for myself the resources needed to cover all those other things.

So, in the same way that I wouldn’t map a conversation about a pitcher’s delivery mechanics, or a BJJ player’s arm drag and top game mechanics, or a basketball player’s shooting mechanics, I don’t think its correct or helpful to use computer game design philosophy of esports jargon to attempt to capture either the fullness or novelty of TTRPG mechanics.
It's kind of an open question whether there can be any sort of general game studies or whether classes of games such as TTRPGs can really only be studied as separate domains. But anyway, almost all of the literature identifies rules as basic to games, so I feel on safe ground to want to examine them in detail.

I'm not really that hung up on terms, and it might even be too reductionist to go to atomic rules (assuming too, that it's even possible.) I've made the possible (but I think pretty much unavoidable) mistake of embedding my definition of what a rule is into what looks like a procedure for using the rule. Making quite reasonable the sort of resistance you raise.

Strictly, an RPG rule as I define it is a supersession or extension of a norm, that is a rule fills in for a norm wherever one would serve. A para-norm, if you will.* One can agree or disagree with that (I see plenty of issues myself) but all this other criticism feels to me a bit off-track. I'm most interested in the question of whether that definition of a rule does enough work? And on the work such a definition seems to presuppose norms are doing for TTRPG. Perhaps what a norm does is something quite functional... as I think I've implied.


[*Rules are paranormal. You read it here first!]
 
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Rereading your OP I retain the feeling that Baker takes an... I guess it could be called teleological approach. He has purposes in mind and he punts game rules like those that model the world that don't fit those purposes. I am aiming for a definition that will include such rules.

I'm thinking about bare cause and function. I'm not concerned with the social negotiation, only with what concretely happens when a rule is followed. That is why I shift tone: the first line lays out when we have cause to follow a rule. The rest lay out what following a rule amounts to.
No offense, but IMHO this technique is ineffective. A lot of what you post, its harder to relate to anything in the actual practice or professional criticism of RPG design than simply reading the rules of actual games, playing them, etc. My advice would be, drop all the philosophical posturing and simply go back to basics, observe what the actual roles are at the table during play in various sorts of games, and what the real concrete processes and outcomes actually are. THEN try to construct a hypothesis based on that, and maybe eventually build up to a more generalized theory. Use plain English, avoid all these academics, etc. I'm not saying they're a total waste of time, just that jumping around picking this and that from philosophy texts to fit some existing notions and then trying to explain your subject from there is a less than likely to bear fruit exercise.
I couldn't find anywhere in the account where it states exactly how that "shaping" takes place. The process, not the purpose. I felt that if one could state the process a bit more clearly, one might see how it could fit with a diversity of purposes.
Baker is one of the clearest of all writers IN EXISTENCE on ANY SUBJECT in my experience! The Process in Apocalypse World is one of the clearest and best documented (especially 2e) sets of procedures relating to the organizing and executing of a team activity I have ever seen. All of this is VERY VERY clear and explicit in his text. I'm happy to go over it with you and answer specific questions, but I'd suggest simply purchasing a copy of AW 2e, its not expensive, and simply reading it cover to cover, maybe a few times.
So far as pre-existing norms extend, participants can often agree that a description D will have the consequences C.
Lapses here necessitate the rule so it's right to observe that this reflects the OP, although I call attention both to the possibility of non-agreement, and the possibility of lack of a norm. I can't see where the OP calls attention to the latter.
Why are you incredibly fixated on this dichotomy between rules and norms? The only functional difference between something written in the book and something that is simply agreed between the participants is perhaps the degree of clarity that may exist in terms of the quality of agreement, but you don't seem to be really drawing on that for any useful insights that I can see. Its also not that useful to dwell on disagreements of this sort, as they simply represent an inability to execute the process of play of a game, and so have very limited value in terms of analyzing that process/structure/system. Certainly an examination of how games fail is potentially valuable on its own, but the most cogent discussions I've ever seen on that subject originated with Ron Edwards!
Baker possibly comes to see that agreement to a rule is never located in the rule - meaning that the social contract if functioning will work without them - and transfers attention to what following rules might achieve. I'm not sure from what you have written whether you agree? I take Baker to be saying, essentially, that rules can be forceful (so that the first and last part of your summary amount to the same thing.) The OP implies the additional necessity of pre-existing norms to rely on: I state it outright.
Uh, this all seems obvious to me, that is "Rules don't enforce themselves, its up to people to decide what they will actually do in practice. Sometimes this is different from what is written down." Yes indeed! All Baker seems to be saying is that the best approach to writing a game system would be to leverage the actual core set of processes of social interactions between people and build your rules around that. Again, I invite you to really thoroughly read the Apocalypse World rules and then perhaps Vince's essays on hacking AW and the 'Onion Structure', etc. where you will learn exactly how he approached this in a very transparent and obvious manner. I'm not saying his approach is the ONLY good one, but I will observe that the majority of RPGs being developed today are based on his work!
Rules supersede pre-existing norms and extend beyond them.
Regardless of whether there are or are not lapses (whether participants do or don't agree) if they follow the rule then what the rule functionally does is supersede and extend beyond any pre-existing norm. I cannot see where this is stated in the OP, although I do see where some useful consequences of this are stated. This statement has many useful implications for games and if the OP intended it, then I think it should have spelt it out.

During play it can be decided if any D has the consequences C by matching that D to a norm or rule that explicitly states or implies that C.
I call attention to the matching, which again I do not see in the OP but which I saw right away in Schauer and I understand to be a general problem in law: beyond trivial examples, how do we know that a rule fits a case? This necessitates strategies to secure it: in AW that's a design strategy, in D&D that's an organisational strategy. Once we have a rule that matches, the functional mapping itself is as implied in the OP.
Pardon me, but I find this whole point to be rather uninteresting and a side issue, at best. Yes, you could try to analyze Baker's statements and game designs in these terms, but IMHO it is an unfruitful approach. I can see two possible types of norms, ones which govern overall process of play, and those which address more specific issues like what are the criteria for evaluating a specific fiction. Baker takes what underlies all of this, the social dynamics and process existing in a typical RPG activity involving several people sitting around a table having a conversation about something. Now, there are certainly norms of behavior associated with that, but they have little to do with the specifics of RPGs! Instead what Baker focuses on is the conversational structure, and he builds a game and its process OUT of that analysis.

In terms of the whole 'activation of rules' thing, this is a SECONDARY consideration! I mean, sure, its a very useful technique and it's obviously employed with great frequency in a very transparent and direct fashion in AW. I don't dispute that one can, and should, evaluate the effectiveness of a given game on how well it manages to utilize this mechanism. That is, a GM who is careless and unprincipled in its application is probably going to run into issues while running a PbtA. I think this is, again, a fairly unremarkable observation. At most it tells us that this 'mapping' as you insist on calling it, needs to be done pretty consistently or else play may degenerate.
So perhaps it is right that I have just reframed what you felt to be implied in the OP. As outlined, I felt that some things were not well enough implied so I went ahead and attempted to formulate a definition. I'm glad that it reflects the OP, and although you did not say it, there is really nothing in what I have written that should not reflect background discourse. It needs more work. I'd value further insights into whether my supposed additions really are additions in the meantime.
Yeah, I think you (and I admit this is a failing of mine also) probably need to write all our posts out in a text editor someplace on the side, wait a couple hours, and then remove 50% of the words! Vince Baker is a genius at being extremely clear, and generally what is unsaid by him is either extremely apparent or relatively unimportant. Like this mapping thing, yeah, its kind of important, but it only exists in the SECOND of the 4 onion layers, so even if there's an issue there, its not going to crash your game, or certainly not as much as a misunderstanding of the layer one stuff, the conversation itself and the MC principles and agenda. So I would posit that the 'triggering' issues you focus on won't be an actual problem unless the GM (or players I guess) is abusing that process to undermine layer one! In other words, if I misapply Read a Sitch but in a way that still honors my principles and agenda, I'm probably OK. It might not be the best practice, but chances are the game will still work. So I would focus my primary attention on that layer one!

Lumpley PbtA design part 1
 

pemerton

Legend
However, let's say the GM has the job of impartially deciding the weather and is not using such a table. The aim is that the weather is external or objective from the perspective of the player characters: unlike nar, player hopes are not expected to be an input. I use the word "impartially" to include not applying desires one way or another. If one thinks that unavoidable then it is better to replace "anyone" with "any player's".
Stipulating that someone's job is to decide something impartially doesn't make their decision-making impartial.

What makes a decision about weather impartial? Is the only impartial decision on that specifies that the weather is typical? But that wouldn't be very realistic, given that realistic weather (quite notoriously) departs from the typical!

This isn't a strange thing to ask, either. The impact of this sort of question on RPG play and design is evident, especially in the late 70s and early 80s. Classic Traveller doesn't ask the GM to impartially stipulate a cargo: it has a cargo table. Rolemaster doesn't ask the GM to impartially stipulate an injury: it has crit tables. Etc.

The move to purist-for-system design can be seen as driven, at least in part, by doubts about the meaningfulness of "impartial decision-making" in these sorts of contexts. (In contrast to, say, decisions about whether poking a certain curtain with a spear will reveal the empty space behind the curtain: it's clearer what it means to impartially adjudicate these sorts of exploratory action declarations, although the history of concerns over "gotcha" GMing of traps shows that these aren't foolproof either.)
 

clearstream

(He, Him)
Baker is one of the clearest of all writers IN EXISTENCE on ANY SUBJECT in my experience! The Process in Apocalypse World is one of the clearest and best documented (especially 2e) sets of procedures relating to the organizing and executing of a team activity I have ever seen. All of this is VERY VERY clear and explicit in his text. I'm happy to go over it with you and answer specific questions, but I'd suggest simply purchasing a copy of AW 2e, its not expensive, and simply reading it cover to cover, maybe a few times.
I own it and have read it. I agree that Baker writes clearly. I meant my comment very narrowly in respect of just what was quoted and summarised in the OP.

Why are you incredibly fixated on this dichotomy between rules and norms? The only functional difference between something written in the book and something that is simply agreed between the participants is perhaps the degree of clarity that may exist in terms of the quality of agreement, but you don't seem to be really drawing on that for any useful insights that I can see. Its also not that useful to dwell on disagreements of this sort, as they simply represent an inability to execute the process of play of a game, and so have very limited value in terms of analyzing that process/structure/system. Certainly an examination of how games fail is potentially valuable on its own, but the most cogent discussions I've ever seen on that subject originated with Ron Edwards!
I'm interested it for a few reasons. One is to have an explanation that includes FKR and one-player RPG. Another is because the rules/norms dichotomy is itself extremely interesting to me. The point of suggesting a definition is really to give a foundation to work from. To which end folk might say - oh yes - rules really are para-norms, sounds good, what's next?

Uh, this all seems obvious to me, that is "Rules don't enforce themselves, its up to people to decide what they will actually do in practice. Sometimes this is different from what is written down." Yes indeed! All Baker seems to be saying is that the best approach to writing a game system would be to leverage the actual core set of processes of social interactions between people and build your rules around that. Again, I invite you to really thoroughly read the Apocalypse World rules and then perhaps Vince's essays on hacking AW and the 'Onion Structure', etc. where you will learn exactly how he approached this in a very transparent and obvious manner. I'm not saying his approach is the ONLY good one, but I will observe that the majority of RPGs being developed today are based on his work!
Yes, I have also read all of the articles in his blog where he discusses the Onion Structure. They're great.

Pardon me, but I find this whole point to be rather uninteresting and a side issue, at best. Yes, you could try to analyze Baker's statements and game designs in these terms, but IMHO it is an unfruitful approach. I can see two possible types of norms, ones which govern overall process of play, and those which address more specific issues like what are the criteria for evaluating a specific fiction. Baker takes what underlies all of this, the social dynamics and process existing in a typical RPG activity involving several people sitting around a table having a conversation about something. Now, there are certainly norms of behavior associated with that, but they have little to do with the specifics of RPGs! Instead what Baker focuses on is the conversational structure, and he builds a game and its process OUT of that analysis.
I appreciate that you're endeavouring here to offer helpful advice. I find the point interesting and consequential. That you don't is of course absolutely okay.

In terms of the whole 'activation of rules' thing, this is a SECONDARY consideration! I mean, sure, its a very useful technique and it's obviously employed with great frequency in a very transparent and direct fashion in AW. I don't dispute that one can, and should, evaluate the effectiveness of a given game on how well it manages to utilize this mechanism. That is, a GM who is careless and unprincipled in its application is probably going to run into issues while running a PbtA. I think this is, again, a fairly unremarkable observation. At most it tells us that this 'mapping' as you insist on calling it, needs to be done pretty consistently or else play may degenerate.
It's a crucial consideration and one that I'm coming to understand a reasonable amount of theory has already been developed on. How do we know which rule to apply in cases where a description does not exactly match any text in the rule itself? Baker has employed a number of strategies to deal with that, in their way formalisations of strategies often already employed by groups. For example, AW take backs. Would you say it was unknown in your groups for folk to see that they had divergent understandings of a situation or what was intended, and be allowed to revise their descriptions? Predating AW, I mean.

Yeah, I think you (and I admit this is a failing of mine also) probably need to write all our posts out in a text editor someplace on the side, wait a couple hours, and then remove 50% of the words! Vince Baker is a genius at being extremely clear, and generally what is unsaid by him is either extremely apparent or relatively unimportant. Like this mapping thing, yeah, its kind of important, but it only exists in the SECOND of the 4 onion layers, so even if there's an issue there, its not going to crash your game, or certainly not as much as a misunderstanding of the layer one stuff, the conversation itself and the MC principles and agenda. So I would posit that the 'triggering' issues you focus on won't be an actual problem unless the GM (or players I guess) is abusing that process to undermine layer one! In other words, if I misapply Read a Sitch but in a way that still honors my principles and agenda, I'm probably OK. It might not be the best practice, but chances are the game will still work. So I would focus my primary attention on that layer one!
Good advice, honestly. For my definition, I copied it out of this thread and put it into a document, allowed time for reflection, and then slightly revised it. To me, it contains some conccrete ideas that I believe have useful consequences. That's all I need, I suppose. I feel like we should encourage one another's investigations into TTRPG, and I appreciate what you have written as good advice.
 

pemerton

Legend
My statement is about determining which rule matches a description, where I am thinking about what might be called atomic functions.
What is an "atomic function" in this context? What does a rule look like? What is a description?

You use these words and phrases as if they have precise, technical meanings. But to me they are serving more to obscure than to make clear.

From my perspective putting it as "GM gets to say" has a potential to add confusion. There must be some means by which descriptions are matched to rules, and that is not just an option taken up by D&D. It's not just something someone "gets to say", it's something that someone must say. Both AW and D&D give it to MC/GM to say.
I didn't say anything about "matching descriptions to rules". To repeat, I attributed to you the view that in D&D, the GM gets to say what procedure will be used to work out what happens next. @Manbearcat has elaborated on the point in his post not far upthread.

For instance, when D&D is played in this fashion, the GM gets to decide whether to call for a dice roll or check; whether to narrate what happens next by reference to their notes; whether to narrate what happens next by extrapolating from their notes; even whether to narrate what happens next by giving voice to their sense of what would best fit, regardless of notes!

None of that is about "matching descriptions to rules". It's about actual processes whereby the shared fiction is established.

For me it's also not sufficiently clear to make it about saying "what procedure will be used". "Procedure" has a potential to be confused as a synonym for rule.
A procedure is a way of doing something, of brining something about.

A rule is a normative standard for conduct. A rule can mandate a procedure (eg "When combat starts, roll initiative"). A rule can forbid a procedure (eg "When we're playing a module, you're forbidden from peeking at the maps").

Nothing meaningful can be said about how RPGing works without discussing the procedures of play - that is to say, the actual methods that actual people use to creates, sustain and develop a shared fiction. The question asked in the OP is What do rules contribute to this endeavour? One contribution they make is to mandate some procedures, and forbid others.

I see that as confusing rules for mechanics.
Mechanics, as per my post upthread, is generally used to refer to a particular sort of procedure, that involves reference to what Baker calls a "cue" - ie rolling dice, making a list, adjusting a tally, writing down a blind declaration, etc.

All game mechanics are, or figure in, procedures of play. But not all procedures of play involve mechanics.

For instance, when the AW rulebook tells the GM to make a soft move if everyone looks to them to see what happens, that is a rule mandating a procedure - ie the GM is to say a particular sort of thing - but the procedure does not involve a mechanic.

AW takes a brilliant approach that builds it into each mechanic (moves are generally compounds of rules) to "look for" just the right description (to do it, do it, i.e. say the right thing), yet - finally - still needs MC's deliberation. I like the court of appeal of take backs: let players confirm that when they said it, they meant to say it. Strategies like these are in a way proof of what is necessitated: they arise because it's necessitated to make a match between description and rule.
This is not the most interesting feature of AW. Working out whether or not a player-side move has been triggered; or working out whether or not everyone is looking at the GM to see what happens next, hence requiring the GM to make a soft move, are not major problems in play.

They are certainly not illustrations of a game in which the GM is permitted to say what procedure will be used to work out what happens next.
 

So by your lights, there can be a procedure containing just one rule. Why call that a procedure exactly? Isn't rule clearer?


I'm cautious of mapping computer game design philosophies onto TTRPGs. However, TTRPG mechanics are normally easily deconstructed into multiple rules. Can you say what problem you see with understanding a mechanic as a compound rule? Or supposing we take mechanic and rule to be synonyms, what do you propose for compound rules that collectively fabricate methods?


Well, as I have repeatedly said that I don't think we should say mechanics when we mean rules, this would be a problem for those saying mechanics :p Which is to say, in defining mechanics as compound rules, I am reserving for myself the resources needed to cover all those other things.

Ok, this is feeling like a regression. I don't know how your first sentence above is responsive to how I've defined procedures. I'm feeling like clarity and understanding is actively decaying with the deconstruction and struggling communication we're undertaking here. I'm going to take this moment to do something I really don't have any interest in doing, but maybe it will help...something. I'm going to define rules, procedures (again), mechanics (again) and give screenshots of examples.

RULES: The entire corpus of language and ephemera that substantively informs and directs play. These include agenda, principles, best practices (or "meta"), authority distribution, all procedures, all mechanics, and possibly some ephemera (like maps, handouts, possibly some illustrations, etc). Taken together, you have "system" or "game engine."

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PROCEDURES: A formal sequence of actions undertaken in order to derive a distinct play experience and output novel to that procedure. Any given component part of the sequence typically (though sometimes a step may just be color, whether structured or freeform) entails referencing features/relationships of the play space/gamestate and/or invoking and resolving a mechanic.

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MECHANICS: A function of system that resolves or facilitates the transition from one distinct gamestate to another. This might be one part of a full combat procedure; a single roll of a dice + modifier to signal combat and dictate turn order like D&D initiative. This might be a discrete mechanic that interacts (could be amplifies...could be mitigates...could be triggers...could be resolves...etc) with another discrete mechanic like Acting Outside of Your Nature (mechanic) in Tochbearer to gain a large dice pool at the risk of taxing your Nature if you fail the Test (another mechanic; the Test). This might be a nested mechanic within a larger mechanical framework (typically conflict resolution) like the pulling of a block of a Jenga Tower in Dread to coincide with action taken in the fiction, the act of which either increases tension or triggers calamity.

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Whether anyone agrees or not, hopefully that makes my position on these matters clear. I'm probably done with this part of the conversation as I feel like this is already well-trodden ground that doesn't need to be examined or deconstructed. This is the basic substrate of all TTRPGs.
 

Well, that seems to restate my concern, because I'm aiming to look at what rules do, not what procedures do. A procedure or play loop will typically involve multiple rules, right? It could be that it's wrong to try to look at what individual rules do, but that would be quite a different criticism. It would be to say that we should only look at procedures, rather than that rules are procedures.
This is what I was saying in my last post though, PROCESS is more fundamental than specific rules. Without the process context in which the rules are embedded, these rules are fairly unimportant.

For example: PbtA and FitD engines use rather different rules to resolve actions, but this is not where their fundamental differences lie. Those differences are really at the level of principles and agenda, the core organizing concepts/rules related to WHAT you want to do, not HOW you want to do it. WHAT is always more primary than HOW, both in gaming and software engineering!
 

pemerton

Legend
Rereading your OP I retain the feeling that Baker takes an... I guess it could be called teleological approach. He has purposes in mind and he punts game rules like those that model the world that don't fit those purposes. I am aiming for a definition that will include such rules.
This is simply not correct.

Baker is not asking what RPG rules can be used for. He is aware, for instance, that rules can have some sort of representational relationship to elements in the game world:

Mechanics might model the stuff of the game world, that's another topic, but they don't exist to do so. They exist to ease and constrain real-world social negotiation between the players at the table.​

His assertion is that this is not something that rules have to do. And, in saying that the sole reason to have rules is to introduce the unwanted and unexpected, he is making an aesthetic judgement. As he says, using rules for other things is a waste of time.

This is also connected to the imperative to purist-for-system RPGs: the reason for using tables isn't just to model, but to model "impartially", which is to say - to get results that no one would choose, or can be relied upon to choose.

Conversely, his assertion is that if the things your rule tell you to say are things you'd say anyway, then you're better off doing away with the rules and just saying those things!

These claims about what is useful, what sensible and so on are conclusions of arguments about what is valuable in RPGing. Rebutting them requires setting out some account of why other things might be valuable. I make a couple of suggestions in the OP.

I'm thinking about bare cause and function. I'm not concerned with the social negotiation, only with what concretely happens when a rule is followed.
You've not said anything concrete about what happens when a rule is followed, either in general or in RPGing. Your various schemas do not ever refer abstractly to actual humans actually performing the task of creating, sustaining and developing a shared fiction

I couldn't find anywhere in the account where it states exactly how that "shaping" takes place.
Innumerable accounts have been given in this thread. My word "shaping" lives in the same functional and explanatory space as Baker's "constrain": I chose "shaping" rather than "constrain" because there is a reading of "constrain" that is negative and so doesn't sufficiently capture the "enabling" or "permissive" character that a rule can have.

Here's an example of how a rule can shape what is said about what happens next: If the players look to you to see what happens next, make a soft move. This is not a point about the abstract nature of rules in general: rules shape what is said about the fiction in virtue of their content, the actual permissions they confer and prohibitions that they impose. All the content that constitutes participant roles, and governs what participants do, which is missing from your purely abstract and formal schemas.

I felt that if one could state the process a bit more clearly, one might see how it could fit with a diversity of purposes.
I don't even know what this means. What statement of the process in AW could be more clear than what I've said, or what Baker has said in the rulebook?

If you want to serve a different purpose with your rules, then you will need rules with different content from the AW ones. For instance, if the purpose is "Make the players feel immersed in a setting narrated to them by the GM, but not compelled to action", you would probably suggest different rules from the AW ones. Because one obvious purpose of making a soft move in AW is to compel the players to action! You would probably have rules that tell the GM to narrate colour, to make extremely soft moves that barely hint at conflict, to make certain sorts of hard moves even if an opportunity has not been offered on a platter, etc.

So far as pre-existing norms extend, participants can often agree that a description D will have the consequences C.
Lapses here necessitate the rule so it's right to observe that this reflects the OP, although I call attention both to the possibility of non-agreement, and the possibility of lack of a norm. I can't see where the OP calls attention to the latter.
I don't know what this means. What is a "pre-existing norm"? I think you mean a belief (but whose?) about what is likely to (or what must?) happen next in the fiction - but I'm not sure of that. What sort of lapses are you referring to? On whose part?

When you say the OP does not call attention to the possibility of a lack of a norm, do you mean the OP doesn't mention that someone (the GM? some or other player? all of the participants?) don't have a predisposition as to what happens next? I think the OP focuses precisely on that: because it talks about the introduction of the unwelcome and the unwanted!

If you mean something else, I do not know what that is.

Baker possibly comes to see that agreement to a rule is never located in the rule
In the context of RPGing, this is the Lumpley principle - that is to say, it bears Vincent Baker's name. So I think it's fair to say that he noticed it, 20-odd years ago.

I take Baker to be saying, essentially, that rules can be forceful (so that the first and last part of your summary amount to the same thing.) The OP implies the additional necessity of pre-existing norms to rely on: I state it outright.
Rules supersede pre-existing norms and extend beyond them.
Regardless of whether there are or are not lapses (whether participants do or don't agree) if they follow the rule then what the rule functionally does is supersede and extend beyond any pre-existing norm. I cannot see where this is stated in the OP, although I do see where some useful consequences of this are stated. This statement has many useful implications for games and if the OP intended it, then I think it should have spelt it out.

During play it can be decided if any D has the consequences C by matching that D to a norm or rule that explicitly states or implies that C.
I call attention to the matching, which again I do not see in the OP but which I saw right away in Schauer and I understand to be a general problem in law: beyond trivial examples, how do we know that a rule fits a case? This necessitates strategies to secure it: in AW that's a design strategy, in D&D that's an organisational strategy. Once we have a rule that matches, the functional mapping itself is as implied in the OP.
I don't know what any of this means. For instance, what is the difference between a "design strategy" and an "organisational strategy" - organisations are often designed! The AW rulebook contains rules for organising the conversation, and the resulting process of creating, sustaining and developing a shared fiction.

I already explained why Schauer's problem is basically irrelevant to a voluntary activity. Suits sees this. So does Baker - hence why he notes that distributions of authority ought not to be the main focus of RPG design.
 

From wider reading of game studies I would say that mechanics are usually taken to be actions players can take to change the game state. That's similar to your definition, but not identical. As an example, Miguel Sicart defines game mechanics as "methods invoked by agents for interacting with the game world." In esports commentary, if a player has "good mechanics", it means they grasp exactly how those methods work and are adept at employing them. The first line of your definition in isolation is close to how I am thinking of rules.
This doesn't strike me as correct. Hit points are a mechanic, but they are not 'invoked' by anyone. They simply serve as a mechanical part of the game, an objectively recorded concrete fact asserted in the real world about the state of the game, separate from the fiction. Rules can be triggered by changes in hit points (IE character death) and rules can specify as part of their execution a manipulation of hit points (IE you are hit by an attack, you take damage). Baker locates these elements at layer 2 in his onion, along with core rules which presumably depend on them, like harm, basic moves like Hack & Slash, etc.

I would agree with the notion that mechanics are 'means', they serve the purpose of assisting in achieving the agenda of play, but they are generally intermediaries. I mean, maybe your description and mine are partly at variance for semantic reasons too, some people would call moves a 'mechanism', but here I don't use the term in that way.
 

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