Hello Minaret,
Because of lack of time this will be only a short review.
You should write: The vast majority of Tears are rogues, although some Tears have additional training as bards, sorceresses, fighters, and even rangers.
You dropped the requirement of being an arcane spellcaster, so ther is no need for a rogue who want to qualify for this PRC to take an arcane spellcasting class. If the player of the rogue (and later Tear) wants to boost his Will save and get rid of some use magic device skill checks he will take a level Sorcerer, even if it is not required for the PrC.
The requirements are ok. The skill selection and skill points look also ok.
Spells: A Tear can cast spells like an sorcerer, if she has sufficient Charisma to cast the spell.
My comment: Because of the +1 Cha requirement for the PrC a Tear can at least cast first and second level spells.
Why not give the familiar exact the same abilites, progession of Int and AC as a normal familiar ?
This ability is better that the older Chasing Shadows ability. It look more balanced to me, but you know my opinion to this ability
If you want the player to take ranks in Knowledge (Philosophy) , then make as a requirement for the PrC: some ranks in Knowledge (Philosphy) (perhaps 2, this is a cross class skill for rogues, so it costs 2 points per rank )
Because of the restriction to maximum 6d4, which I like, a calculating player perhaps will take only 6 ranks Knowledge (Philosophy), because more ranks will not increase the healing.
Why based on ranks ?
IIRC most special abilities are based on attribute bonus.
One reason for this can be, that ranks of a skill can increased at high levels to high numbers. Attributes bonus seldom excedes + 8.
Why not based on Wis because of healing or clerical spells or if you like a higher attribute bonus on Cha bonus (IIRC like a paladin´s lay on hands) (maximum also 6d4)
e.g. Level 2: Shadow´s Grace aka Cat´s Grace or Level 3 Displacement If you like you also can add Shadow´s Inner Strength aka Endurance and Invisbiilty (both Level 2) to the list..
This addtion to the spell list would be a big improvement to the PrC.
I do not know every spell in the spell list, so I can only guess the practical use of some spells. I do not know in which World you play (FR, Greyhawk, Scarred Lands, etc.) I assume that you are playing ina world similar to the WtoC worlds. You should be very cautious with spells from othe ressources. I would replace all the spells from Ritual & Relicts (because they imbalance the world if you are not playing in Scarred Lands). The world of Scarred Lands is also more powerful than FR oder Greyhawk (I remember a dragon who had a breath with the function of the spell Mordenkain´s Disjunction
(( ).
Choose spells you like und unname them if you want e.g. gasous form shadow form, Mirror Images Shadow Images but the spell act like the PHB spell)
Now a explanation; why Ritual & Relicts spells are more poerfull than PHB spells.
Commanding Presence (the Charisma Boost +1D4) is normally a second level spell like Bull Strength, Cat´s Grace. IIRC in WotC books the spell is named Eagle Splendor (T&B or FR) . You can not lower the spell because every party member will want that the Tear cast this spell because it uses only a first level slot instead of second level slots of wizards or sorcerers.
Shade´s sight: This is a very powerful spell. I as a GM would not allow this spell as a first level spell. Probablly I would change this spell to at least as fourth level or higher.
Shadow Images (also a Ritual and Relicts spell, Scarred Lands) is also normally second level spell for Wiz and Sor. This spell is a better version of Mirror image (PHB). So if the GM allows this spell ( I would not allow this spell as second level spell, this spell has to be at least !! third level because this spell is better than mirror image.) you should discuss this spell with your DM.
Shadow Form of Lyrand: A powerful version of Gaseous form, so if I ever allow this spell IMC at least level 4.
Shadow Weapon, normally a 5th level spell, IMC I would never allow this spell.
Dar´tans Shadowbolt: Oh a Lightning Bolt with implanted delay. (At least level 4, but certainly higher, if the GM allows that spell.) You can cast this spell before the fight and later you choose your round when you want to throw the bolt, this is a very great advantage.
The shadow evocation spells can be used to mimic fire based spells.... The shadow evocation and conjuration spells are very universal spells. you could use them to imitate nearly every spell
With this spell list, the Tear is a good mage who can do a lot damage.
You should think about which spells a Tear really needs. You must decide if she really does needs so many damage spells (a bard normally do not get damage spells ) or if she is a seducer, charmer, then she needs enchantment spells.... like charm person (perhaps named eyes of the night ), hold person, etc.
Where do a Tear fight against Jackals ? In the city ? in the wilderness ? If she often fights in the cities or buildings because the most swans live in cities, enchantments spells are better than evocation damage spells. Who wants to pay the repair ?
1. A Displacement spell (Level 3) grants you 50% miss chance with a shorter duration.
2. Do a rogue really need a boost for his escape artist skill ? A boost is always good, but is this really necessary ? I know a rogue/sorcerer has no high int, so he has not enough skill points for every necessary skill, but trust me even with an int of 18 you do not have enough skil points for all necessary skills. You always have to make choices. Is it a good choice not to increase the escape artist skill and get free ranks by a spell or create a spell which grants free ranks ?
3. If this spell is used in a non combat situation: Do a rogue really needs two skill foci (+5) on his Hide skill ?
Image, tables:
Comparisons:
Base is al Level 5 Rogue who has the requirements for the PrC
Look at her ten levels later:
if she chooses
10 Levels Rogue
A Level 10 Rogue has a BAB of 7/2, Saves 3/7/3, SA +5D6, uncanny dodge (can not be flanked), one Special ability
and ends as
A level 15 Rogue has a BAB of 11/6/1, Saves 5/9/5, SA +8D6 thrice uncanny dodge features (can not be flanked and twice plus vs. traps) two special abilities
if she chooses 10 Level Sorcerer he gains
A Level 10 Sorcerer has a BAB of 5, Saves 3/3/7, Summon familar, Spells 6/6/6/6/5/3 known 9/5/4/3/2/1 Access to level 5 spells
in Contrast
A level 15 Sorcerer has a BAB of 7/2, Saves 5/5/9, Summon familiar, Spells 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/4 known 9/5/5/4/4/4/3/2, access to Level 7 spells
if she chooses 10 level Bard, she gains
A Level 10 Bard has a BAB of 7/2, Saves 3/7/7, Bardic Music, Spells 3/3/3/2/0, known 6/4/4/4/2 Access to level 4 spells
in Contrast
A level 15 Bard has a BAB 11/6/1, Saves 5/9/9 Bardic Music, Spells 4/4/3/3/3/2 known 6/4/4/4/4/3, Access to level 5 Spells
If she chooses 10 Level Tear PrC
A Level 10 Tear has a BAB 7/2 Saves 3/7/7 several abilities SA + 5D6 Spells 0/3/3/3/2/1, known 0/4/3/3/2/2 Access to level 5 spells.
Tear vs. Rogue
So a Tear Level 10 has the same SA as a rogue. She trades skill points, uncanny dodge (can not be flanked), one Special ability for her spell casting abilities and several special abilities . A very big win for the Tear
Tear vs. Bard
So a Tear Level 10 has the Saves and BAB as a Bard, but access to higher level spells as a 10 level bard (Level 5 vs. 4) and access to spells which do damage, similar amount of spells to cast and known, the Tear has attack and damage spells (shadow bolt, shadow evocation, etc.), a bard mostly enchantments.
The spell list of a Tear is limited, but with more powerful version of PHB spells. Shadow evocation and Shadow conjuration are big advantages. She also gains as bonus feats for free: summon familar and improved familiar. This all she gains in adition to her Special Abilities and the Sneak attack. With shadow evocation the Tear can immitate most evocation spells except the spells light and fire descriptor. So she cast evocation spells which inflict damage with cold, acid or sonic descriptor. Most Monster already have a resistance fire. She trades Bardic Music for all the new and better abilities. So a very, very big win for the Tear
I like the many of reduced special abilities of the PrC, but I would at least drop two bonus of Sneak Attack and limit the spell access to max. level 4 spells. The amount of spells in the spell list is IMHO ok, but I would revise the spell list. Perhaps you can use as spell progression table, the table of the Vigilante (Song & Silence).
I do not really know how to change the advantage/disadvantage Rog5/tear10 vs Rog5/bard10.
The Level 1 Tear has to many advantages (darkvision 2 bonus feats and sneak attack). Do not switch Seductions shield and Improved Familiar.
A problem I have´not thought yet is the improved familiar feat.
The animal which can be gained as a familiar by the improved familiar feat is tied to the spellcaster level (not the entire character level). The caster level of a Tear1 is 1, so she does not really get an improved familiar (she will get a normal familiar). The minimal level for an improved familiar is spellcaster level 3. So switch Improved Familiar to level 3 and drop the sneak attack there.
Perhaps one solution can be this: This is only a rough draft
You add again as a requirement: The ability to cast arcane spells spontanous.
This means 1 Level Sorcerer or 2 Level Bard are required.
If you do not want that Tears gets the Summon Familiar feat for free, make this feat as a requirement, so only Sor level 2 and Bards Level 2 with this feat can enter this PrC.
BAB and Saves, special abilities unchanged
Every even Level of the PrC the Tear gains a +1 level to existing spellcasting class, so a Level 10 Tear has + 5 Level Spell casting (either bard or sorcerer) so the Rog5/Sor1/Tear10 is effectively a Sor6 with access to level 3 spells, The Rog5/Bard2/Tear10 is effectively a Bard 7 with access to level 3 spells. Then there are no special Tears spells.
The Sneak Attack +1D6 at level 1, 5 and 9
I do not know which style of PrC you prefer: The PrCs of the DMG or the PrCs of the additional books like T&B, S&S, etc.
Just my 2 cents
yennico
ooh, then I must post my comments immediatelyMinaret said:Here's a revised draft of the PrC. Time to jump in if you have a comment, thought, or concern. My goal is to lock the PrC down by Tuesday -- I have a gaming session coming up and my character (Rog6/Sor1) finally qualifies for the PrC.
Because of lack of time this will be only a short review.This sounds good.
Here I would add a descriptive text like "The Mistress communicate to her Tears by visions and dreams. To see the world like the Mistress sees it, the Tear must use their Visages spell." I would drop the Augury Element in the Tear Shadow´s Child ability. If the GM wants that the PrC recieves a vision, the PrC will recieve a vison. There is no need to desrcibe this in an ability.
A slight mistake
You should write: The vast majority of Tears are rogues, although some Tears have additional training as bards, sorceresses, fighters, and even rangers.
You dropped the requirement of being an arcane spellcaster, so ther is no need for a rogue who want to qualify for this PRC to take an arcane spellcasting class. If the player of the rogue (and later Tear) wants to boost his Will save and get rid of some use magic device skill checks he will take a level Sorcerer, even if it is not required for the PrC.
The requirements are ok. The skill selection and skill points look also ok.
You should add:
Spells: A Tear can cast spells like an sorcerer, if she has sufficient Charisma to cast the spell.
My comment: Because of the +1 Cha requirement for the PrC a Tear can at least cast first and second level spells.
So a Drow can at 10th level never use his special ability darkness 1x/ day or a Half-Fiend Darkness 3x/day ? Why are you barring darkness ? Light and Fire is ok, but why darkness. Darkness is the absence of light. A Shadow is not the absence of light, it can only exist in places where at least some light is present.
You should drop this part because there is no more requirement of being an arcane spellcaster for qualifing as Tear PrC.
This is ok.
Drop this part and add this to the descriptive text.
This sounds good except: "For every even level the Tear gains in the prestige class, the familiar receives a +1 to its Intelligence and AC. "
Why not give the familiar exact the same abilites, progession of Int and AC as a normal familiar ?
This two abilites sound good. The DC of the emotion spell ? If Emotion is on the Tear´s spell list, this ability is only one additional spell slot.
I have no opinion to this ability because I do not know all rules necessary to this ability, but to me it sounds ok.
A rogue of that level is nearly never flat-footed.
This ability is better that the older Chasing Shadows ability. It look more balanced to me, but you know my opinion to this abilityWhy based on Knowledge (Philosophy) ?
If you want the player to take ranks in Knowledge (Philosophy) , then make as a requirement for the PrC: some ranks in Knowledge (Philosphy) (perhaps 2, this is a cross class skill for rogues, so it costs 2 points per rank
) Because of the restriction to maximum 6d4, which I like, a calculating player perhaps will take only 6 ranks Knowledge (Philosophy), because more ranks will not increase the healing.
Why based on ranks ?
IIRC most special abilities are based on attribute bonus.
One reason for this can be, that ranks of a skill can increased at high levels to high numbers. Attributes bonus seldom excedes + 8.
Why not based on Wis because of healing or clerical spells or if you like a higher attribute bonus on Cha bonus (IIRC like a paladin´s lay on hands) (maximum also 6d4)
You have not defined Shadow Magic yet.
The spell list looks a little bit better. I miss several useful spells.
e.g. Level 2: Shadow´s Grace aka Cat´s Grace or Level 3 Displacement If you like you also can add Shadow´s Inner Strength aka Endurance and Invisbiilty (both Level 2) to the list..
This addtion to the spell list would be a big improvement to the PrC.
I do not know every spell in the spell list, so I can only guess the practical use of some spells. I do not know in which World you play (FR, Greyhawk, Scarred Lands, etc.) I assume that you are playing ina world similar to the WtoC worlds. You should be very cautious with spells from othe ressources. I would replace all the spells from Ritual & Relicts (because they imbalance the world if you are not playing in Scarred Lands). The world of Scarred Lands is also more powerful than FR oder Greyhawk (I remember a dragon who had a breath with the function of the spell Mordenkain´s Disjunction
(( ).Choose spells you like und unname them if you want e.g. gasous form shadow form, Mirror Images Shadow Images but the spell act like the PHB spell)
Now a explanation; why Ritual & Relicts spells are more poerfull than PHB spells.
Commanding Presence (the Charisma Boost +1D4) is normally a second level spell like Bull Strength, Cat´s Grace. IIRC in WotC books the spell is named Eagle Splendor (T&B or FR) . You can not lower the spell because every party member will want that the Tear cast this spell because it uses only a first level slot instead of second level slots of wizards or sorcerers.
Shade´s sight: This is a very powerful spell. I as a GM would not allow this spell as a first level spell. Probablly I would change this spell to at least as fourth level or higher.
Shadow Images (also a Ritual and Relicts spell, Scarred Lands) is also normally second level spell for Wiz and Sor. This spell is a better version of Mirror image (PHB). So if the GM allows this spell ( I would not allow this spell as second level spell, this spell has to be at least !! third level because this spell is better than mirror image.) you should discuss this spell with your DM.
Shadow Form of Lyrand: A powerful version of Gaseous form, so if I ever allow this spell IMC at least level 4.
Shadow Weapon, normally a 5th level spell, IMC I would never allow this spell.
Dar´tans Shadowbolt: Oh a Lightning Bolt with implanted delay. (At least level 4, but certainly higher, if the GM allows that spell.) You can cast this spell before the fight and later you choose your round when you want to throw the bolt, this is a very great advantage.
The shadow evocation spells can be used to mimic fire based spells....
The shadow evocation and conjuration spells are very universal spells. you could use them to imitate nearly every spell With this spell list, the Tear is a good mage who can do a lot damage.
You should think about which spells a Tear really needs. You must decide if she really does needs so many damage spells (a bard normally do not get damage spells ) or if she is a seducer, charmer, then she needs enchantment spells.... like charm person (perhaps named eyes of the night
), hold person, etc.Where do a Tear fight against Jackals ? In the city ? in the wilderness ? If she often fights in the cities or buildings because the most swans live in cities, enchantments spells are better than evocation damage spells. Who wants to pay the repair ?
Sounds ok.
A Blur spell with reduced duration.
The +10 modifier ist ok. The entire spell sounds good, but I have one problem: Why should this spell grant a bonus on escape artists checks. Is the shadow "cloak" greasy, oily or something like that so the grapple would become more difficult ? I would say: If an opponent tries to grapple the Tear while this spell is in effect on thenTear, the "cloak" grants because of a kind of displacement an one time bonus of +10 to an escape artist check to avoid a grapple. This bonus does not apply on escape artist checks when being in a grapple. If the +10 bonus is granted on every escape artist check a Tear can not be grappled, because rogues should have many ranks in escape artist This will be a bit too powerful. I do not know if rogues really need this effect. Rogue should stay in motion while in combat (because of Mobilty) and avoid any grapple. If they are grappled the have a high Dex and at least several ranks in escape artist. This spell is very useful to sorcerers and wizards who do not have ranks in escape artist.
You take a Blur spell, reduced the duration, added two bonus (one to Escape artist and one to hide) and finally increased the spell level.
1. A Displacement spell (Level 3) grants you 50% miss chance with a shorter duration.
2. Do a rogue really need a boost for his escape artist skill ? A boost is always good, but is this really necessary ? I know a rogue/sorcerer has no high int, so he has not enough skill points for every necessary skill, but trust me even with an int of 18 you do not have enough skil points for all necessary skills. You always have to make choices. Is it a good choice not to increase the escape artist skill and get free ranks by a spell or create a spell which grants free ranks ?
3. If this spell is used in a non combat situation: Do a rogue really needs two skill foci (+5) on his Hide skill ?
Image, tables:
Comparisons:
Base is al Level 5 Rogue who has the requirements for the PrC
Look at her ten levels later:
if she chooses
10 Levels Rogue
A Level 10 Rogue has a BAB of 7/2, Saves 3/7/3, SA +5D6, uncanny dodge (can not be flanked), one Special ability
and ends as
A level 15 Rogue has a BAB of 11/6/1, Saves 5/9/5, SA +8D6 thrice uncanny dodge features (can not be flanked and twice plus vs. traps) two special abilities
if she chooses 10 Level Sorcerer he gains
A Level 10 Sorcerer has a BAB of 5, Saves 3/3/7, Summon familar, Spells 6/6/6/6/5/3 known 9/5/4/3/2/1 Access to level 5 spells
in Contrast
A level 15 Sorcerer has a BAB of 7/2, Saves 5/5/9, Summon familiar, Spells 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/4 known 9/5/5/4/4/4/3/2, access to Level 7 spells
if she chooses 10 level Bard, she gains
A Level 10 Bard has a BAB of 7/2, Saves 3/7/7, Bardic Music, Spells 3/3/3/2/0, known 6/4/4/4/2 Access to level 4 spells
in Contrast
A level 15 Bard has a BAB 11/6/1, Saves 5/9/9 Bardic Music, Spells 4/4/3/3/3/2 known 6/4/4/4/4/3, Access to level 5 Spells
If she chooses 10 Level Tear PrC
A Level 10 Tear has a BAB 7/2 Saves 3/7/7 several abilities SA + 5D6 Spells 0/3/3/3/2/1, known 0/4/3/3/2/2 Access to level 5 spells.
Tear vs. Rogue
So a Tear Level 10 has the same SA as a rogue. She trades skill points, uncanny dodge (can not be flanked), one Special ability for her spell casting abilities and several special abilities . A very big win for the Tear
Tear vs. Bard
So a Tear Level 10 has the Saves and BAB as a Bard, but access to higher level spells as a 10 level bard (Level 5 vs. 4) and access to spells which do damage, similar amount of spells to cast and known, the Tear has attack and damage spells (shadow bolt, shadow evocation, etc.), a bard mostly enchantments.
The spell list of a Tear is limited, but with more powerful version of PHB spells. Shadow evocation and Shadow conjuration are big advantages. She also gains as bonus feats for free: summon familar and improved familiar. This all she gains in adition to her Special Abilities and the Sneak attack. With shadow evocation the Tear can immitate most evocation spells except the spells light and fire descriptor. So she cast evocation spells which inflict damage with cold, acid or sonic descriptor. Most Monster already have a resistance fire. She trades Bardic Music for all the new and better abilities. So a very, very big win for the Tear
I like the many of reduced special abilities of the PrC, but I would at least drop two bonus of Sneak Attack and limit the spell access to max. level 4 spells. The amount of spells in the spell list is IMHO ok, but I would revise the spell list. Perhaps you can use as spell progression table, the table of the Vigilante (Song & Silence).
I do not really know how to change the advantage/disadvantage Rog5/tear10 vs Rog5/bard10.
The Level 1 Tear has to many advantages (darkvision 2 bonus feats and sneak attack). Do not switch Seductions shield and Improved Familiar.
A problem I have´not thought yet is the improved familiar feat.
The animal which can be gained as a familiar by the improved familiar feat is tied to the spellcaster level (not the entire character level). The caster level of a Tear1 is 1, so she does not really get an improved familiar (she will get a normal familiar). The minimal level for an improved familiar is spellcaster level 3. So switch Improved Familiar to level 3 and drop the sneak attack there.
Perhaps one solution can be this: This is only a rough draft
You add again
as a requirement: The ability to cast arcane spells spontanous. This means 1 Level Sorcerer or 2 Level Bard are required.
If you do not want that Tears gets the Summon Familiar feat for free, make this feat as a requirement, so only Sor level 2 and Bards Level 2 with this feat can enter this PrC.
BAB and Saves, special abilities unchanged
Every even Level of the PrC the Tear gains a +1 level to existing spellcasting class, so a Level 10 Tear has + 5 Level Spell casting (either bard or sorcerer) so the Rog5/Sor1/Tear10 is effectively a Sor6 with access to level 3 spells, The Rog5/Bard2/Tear10 is effectively a Bard 7 with access to level 3 spells. Then there are no special Tears spells.
The Sneak Attack +1D6 at level 1, 5 and 9
I do not know which style of PrC you prefer: The PrCs of the DMG or the PrCs of the additional books like T&B, S&S, etc.
Just my 2 cents
yennico
