mellored
Legend
Sure. I would roll a secret perception check to land on a target.
Or investigate if they where aiming at a specific location. See if their character remembers how far it was to the doorway.
D&D 5E (2024) Cloud of Daggers / Teleport Question
- Thread starter DragonLancer
- Start date
Or investigate if they where aiming at a specific location. See if their character remembers how far it was to the doorway.
DragonLancer
Legend
The question wasn't about dropping it on enemies. The player who questioned it's use was asking about whether you could drop it out of sight of the caster with the teleporting mechanic. That player feels it's too strong but I can't see anything that says the caster can't move it to a location that is out of sight providing they feel legitimately that they could drop it in that location.
The situation has come up twice where players really questioned the mechanic.
In encounter A, they were fighting baddies in a room with corridors going off to the sides which hadn't been looked into because the combat started. Guards were heard coming from one tunnel. The caster moved the Cloud of Daggers down the corridor (which was 10' wide so the spell could go there) in an attempt to block them off or at least slow them down. I don't have an issue with this one because although they don't know the length of the corridor, they do assume from the entrance that it was wide enough to put the spell.
Encounter B was a little after encounter A, and the party were at a door where they could hear canine barking somewhere beyond. The Cloud was already in effect so the caster still decided to move it to the other side of the door to block it off. By my map there was no enemies at the door and it was clear space. The querying player was asking whether you could drop the cloud behind the door since you don't know what was directly there. Again, I don't have an issue but the player was politely unhappy with this ruling. Hence my reasoning for asking and checking with more experienced minds.
Basic Expert
Explorer
Per the teleportation keyword description: "If the destination space of your teleportation is occupied by another creature or blocked by a solid obstacle, you instead appear in the nearest unoccupied
space of your choice."
By a strict interpretation of the rules, you cannot teleport Cloud of Daggers onto a target after its initial conjuration.
Therefore, if you use the text of the teleportation effect to justify overriding the standard "line of effect" limitation of spells, allowing you to teleport it to an unseen location, you must also accept the above restriction.
On the other hand, my hypothesis is that the Cloud of Daggers teleportation text is a clumsy attempt to prevent players from moving the cloud through huge swathes of enemies each turn. Rather than touching multiple squares, it simply disappears from one square and appears in another. That seems to be in keeping with the concept and power level of the spell. Unfortunately, the spell's text doesn't address line of sight issues or the above teleportation restriction leading to the current ambiguity. This is how I would run it.
space of your choice."
By a strict interpretation of the rules, you cannot teleport Cloud of Daggers onto a target after its initial conjuration.
Therefore, if you use the text of the teleportation effect to justify overriding the standard "line of effect" limitation of spells, allowing you to teleport it to an unseen location, you must also accept the above restriction.
On the other hand, my hypothesis is that the Cloud of Daggers teleportation text is a clumsy attempt to prevent players from moving the cloud through huge swathes of enemies each turn. Rather than touching multiple squares, it simply disappears from one square and appears in another. That seems to be in keeping with the concept and power level of the spell. Unfortunately, the spell's text doesn't address line of sight issues or the above teleportation restriction leading to the current ambiguity. This is how I would run it.
DrJawaPhD
Hero
Not really. By a strict interpretation of the rules, that text only applies when YOU (a creature) teleport, and does not specify anything either way about when you cause a magical effect to teleport.
Cloud of Daggers is a nearly useless spell if you cannot put it on top of creatures to do damage to them. So obviously the Rules As Intended would be that you would be able to teleport it onto targets, and there is no Rules As Written specifying otherwise. The keyword description for Teleportation only refers to when creatures teleport.
Basic Expert
Explorer
I agree, but then you are left with the general "line of sight" restriction for spells, which would disallow you to move it to a place you cannot see.
Understood. And your explanation for the two incidents (thank you for those!) doesn't really change my opinion on the matter.
My point about dropping it on enemies was more about saying that if the game is balanced when Cloud of Daggers is placed normally and "by the rules" (whether it's on top of enemies or in locations where enemies would get caught running through it)... then it's just as balanced placing it in a location elsewhere (in this case, teleported to a spot the caster cannot see.) The number of targets and the amount of damage will be the same. And thus the only reason someone might object to this is because they felt that "in-world" it might be wrong to do a teleport to an unseen location.
Mechanics-wise it doesn't matter and is fine because the same enemies can get caught in the Cloud regardless of where it is located and the spell has been balanced to have that be so... thus it's only us players' "imaginations" that would make us have an issue with it. We imagine that the teleportation out of sight shouldn't happen and that's why it might bug us... not that anything is actually overpowered though by having it occur. In other words... nothing is mechanically gained by allowing it, and thus I myself would not have a problem with it at all.
Plaguescarred
Hero
In general, nothing can teleport in an occupied space, and even if Cloud of Dagger could, it wouldn't do anything at this very moment as it doesn't constitute the creature entering the Cube but the opposite. For an example of a spell's area moving into creature's space see Moonbeam.
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