Check Out This Early Ravenloft: The Horrors Within Artwork

Artamo · 2026-03-04T16:36:07+0000

Charlaquin said:
Because those names mean things, and what they mean is not easily compatible with Ravenloft. Cthulhu lives in the Atlantic Ocean, on actual factual Earth. Him being trapped in a misty demiplane in the shadowfell is just not correct. Azathoth is the blind idiot god who unwittingly created the universe and the only reason it’s safe from him is because it’s beyond his notice. The existence of that character in D&D implies a lot about the setting that is incompatible with other established facts about its universe. One or both things have to change to a point of no longer being themselves to be forced together.

Right, and while he is obviously inspired by Dracula, there are a lot of details that could not have worked if he had actually been the Brahm Stoker character. It is a good thing that he was made an original character because it gave the writers the freedom to take him in his own direction, and the setting is better for that.

But what they know about him is not that he lives in Ravenloft. They’re going to have to make significant changes to him to fit him into the setting anyway, so why not make this altered version his own character, not beholden to the audience’s expectations of Cthulhu?

I would argue that both characters are less characters than they are motifs? Nebulous threats? They’re not really personalities. R’lyeh being in the Atlantic or Pacific or some fantasy world ocean means less, IMO, than it does what he represents, which is some sleeping destroyer that so ambivalent to the mortal ants around it that he barely recognizes their existence, which honestly is not that different from Azathoth. I’m sure for fans of the Mythos who are deeply entrenched in the books of various authors, there are several nuances, but at my more causal level - I don’t see a lot of characterization there.

As for Strahd vs Dracula, there’s still plenty of people who see Strahd as just a Dracula analogue. Had the Hickmans chosen Dracula as their main character 40 years ago, we’d probably still have Dracula firmly entrenched in D&D canon. Clearly, analogues are hit or miss within Ravenloft. Some fans bemoan the loss of Victor Mordenheim, others are far happier with the slightly less obviously Dr. Frankenstein version we have now with Viktra.

Ultimately, I just don’t see the changes too Cthulhu being all that tied to him being on Earth rather than him representing an unknowable cosmic threat. I don’t think it’s that hard to put him in Ravenloft.

Voadam · 2026-03-04T16:36:38+0000

Charlaquin said:
I’m unfamiliar with that, but it sounds like something I wouldn’t like

Masque of the Red Death a 2e Ravenloft expansion world where one of the Dark Powers gets into 1890s earth so we have things like Dracula and Frankenstein's Monster and the Ghost of Sitting Bull.

Original 2e Ravenloft had a couple of Darklords taken straight out of other fiction, Bluebeard was not a take on Bluebeard but Bluebeard himself, Lord Soth was an existing character straight out of Dragonlance, etc. I always thought TSR's contemporaneous Marvel Superheros Lands of Doom boxed set with Doctor Doom as Lord of Latveria could fit well into 2e Ravenloft.

Voadam · 2026-03-04T16:39:49+0000

Artamo said:
I’m sure for fans of the Mythos who are deeply entrenched in the books of various authors, there are several nuances, but at my more causal level - I don’t see a lot of characterization there.

A big nuance difference is that in the classic Cthulhu story the protagonist fights Cthulhu directly.

Charlaquin · 2026-03-04T16:47:28+0000

Artamo said:
I would argue that both characters are less characters than they are motifs? Nebulous threats? They’re not really personalities. R’lyeh being in the Atlantic or Pacific or some fantasy world ocean means less, IMO, than it does what he represents, which is some sleeping destroyer that so ambivalent to the mortal ants around it that he barely recognizes their existence, which honestly is not that different from Azathoth. I’m sure for fans of the Mythos who are deeply entrenched in the books of various authors, there are several nuances, but at my more causal level - I don’t see a lot of characterization there.

Right, so what difference does it make to you if the expression of that theme in Ravenloft has the serial numbers on it or not? Whereas, for the fans who do know and care about the specifics of these characters, it does matter.

Artamo said:
As for Strahd vs Dracula, there’s still plenty of people who see Strahd as just a Dracula analogue.

Those people are overlooking significant and meaningful differences between the two characters. They are both very cool characters that have a lot in common, but also have a lot of differences. I, as a big vampire fan, like having two cool vampire characters instead of one, especially because they explore different themes through vampirism. Dracula is ultimately about the fear of foreign invaders, whereas Strahd plays more in the territory of fear of aging. It’s awesome that both can exist and be their own distinct things.

Artamo said:
Had the Hickmans chosen Dracula as their main character 40 years ago, we’d probably still have Dracula firmly entrenched in D&D canon.

Yes, and D&D canon would be the worse off for it. That’s my point.

Artamo said:
Clearly, analogues are hit or miss within Ravenloft. Some fans bemoan the loss of Victor Mordenheim, others are far happier with the slightly less obviously Dr. Frankenstein version we have now with Viktra.

I like both. I’m glad they both exist, and are both their own distinct things, from each other and from Viktor Frankenstein.

Artamo said:
Ultimately, I just don’t see the changes too Cthulhu being all that tied to him being on Earth rather than him representing an unknowable cosmic threat. I don’t think it’s that hard to put him in Ravenloft.

But you’ve already identified yourself as someone who isn’t really interested in the finer nuances of the Lovecraft Mythos. To those who are, the things that will need to be changed are more meaningful. Moreover, by using Cthulhu instead of making a new character inspired by him, the writers rob themselves and future D&D writers of the opportunity to create a new and interesting character that is free to evolve in its own direction orthogonal to that of the source material.

ersatzphil · 2026-03-04T16:49:00+0000

Voadam said:
A big nuance difference is that in the classic Cthulhu story the protagonist fights Cthulhu directly.

In "The Call of Cthulhu"? What protagonist fights Cthulhu directly?

Charlaquin · 2026-03-04T16:52:16+0000

ersatzphil said:
In "The Call of Cthulhu"? What protagonist fights Cthulhu directly?

Gustaf Johansen and the crew of the Alert. They ram the ship into his head. Though, he does recover from the damage pretty much instantly.

ersatzphil · 2026-03-04T16:56:36+0000

Charlaquin said:
Gustaf Johansen and the crew of the Alert. They ram the ship into his head. Though, he does recover from the damage pretty much instantly.

That's fair. It occurred to me after posting that you could probably argue Legrasse arresting the entirety of the Louisiana cult could be argued as "directly fighting Cthulhu", if only through his influence. Still, the Alert pulled off an act of desperation after waking Cthulhu essentially on accident, it's not like they sallied forth like knights to slay a dragon.

Charlaquin · 2026-03-04T17:02:55+0000

ersatzphil said:
That's fair. It occurred to me after posting that you could probably argue Legrasse arresting the entirety of the Louisiana cult could be argued as "directly fighting Cthulhu", if only through his influence. Still, the Alert pulled off an act of desperation after waking Cthulhu essentially on accident, it's not like they sallied forth like knights to slay a dragon.

Yeah, “fight” is a bit of a lofty way to describe what they did, for sure! But I assume that’s what @Voadam was referring to. It does certainly demonstrate a meaningful difference between Cthulhu and Azathoth - one can be mildly annoyed by a single ship bumping into it, while the other doesn’t even register that it created a universe. They both play with themes of “you are puny and meaningless,” but on vastly different scales.

Artamo · 2026-03-04T17:05:29+0000

Charlaquin said:
But you’ve already identified yourself as someone who isn’t really interested in the finer nuances of the Lovecraft Mythos. To those who are, the things that will need to be changed are more meaningful. Moreover, by using Cthulhu instead of making a new character inspired by him, the writers rob themselves and future D&D writers of the opportunity to create a new and interesting character that is free to evolve in its own direction orthogonal to that of the source material.

The fact that you are a bigger fan of the Mythos doesn’t invalidate others opinions around the game or even the source material. We’re both free to choose what we want to include in a Ravenloft campaign.

Charlaquin · 2026-03-04T17:25:50+0000

Artamo said:
The fact that you are a bigger fan of the Mythos doesn’t invalidate others opinions around the game or even the source material. We’re both free to choose what we want to include in a Ravenloft campaign.

Not at all, my intent is to express my own preference and the reasons behind it, not to invalidate anyone else’s opinions. Also, to clarify, I’m not really that big a fan of the mythos. I like general cosmic horror quite a lot, and I have read most of Lovecraft’s stories once. I’m more opposed to crossover slop than I am committed to Cthulhu purism.