13th Age Everything you ever wanted to know about 13th Age and Shadow of the Demon Lord/Weird Wizard

At the request of @Whizbang Dustyboots I’ve started this thread to explain what’s unique about 13th Age and Shadow of the Weird Wizard/Demon Lord.

I’ve played a 50 session campaign of SotDL and am nearly finished with a 70 session campaign of 13th Age. So I have things to say about both. However, I’ll just start by covering the basics. Note the first draft of this post was written by AI, then revised by me.

If you have your own thoughts on either system – or other f20 systems you enjoy – they are welcome here. I’ll do my best to answer any questions, too.

At their core, both games share the fundamental DNA of other f20 systems like Dungeons & Dragons and Pathfinder.

• d20 Resolution: Roll a d20 + modifiers vs. a target number.
• Classes & Levels: Characters advance through levels with class-based abilities.
• Combat Structure: Turn-based initiative, attack rolls, damage, hit points.
• Fantasy Archetypes: Fighters, rogues, spellcasters, monsters, magic items.
• GM + Party: One GM runs the world; players control individual characters.
• Ability Scores: Strength, Dexterity, etc. modify rolls and define capabilities.

If you know how to play D&D, you know how to play 13th Age or Shadow. Their overall complexity is about the same as 5E, probably slightly simpler.

13th Age
Created by Rob Heinsoo, a lead designer of 4E, and Jonathan Tweet, a lead designer of 3E. This game feels like a narrative version of 4E, with big mythic heroes and a focus on story-first, player-driven play.

1. Narrative Authority Is Shared​

Most d20 games are GM-driven worlds. In 13th Age, players help define the setting.

• One Unique Thing (OUT): Each character has a completely unique narrative hook that is true in the world (“only person to escape the Imperial Prison”).
• This isn’t flavor. Nor is it crunch. It’s story. An OUT doesn’t give your character special powers or abilities. But it lets you define the world and your place in it.

2. Icons Shape the World​

Technically there are gods in the setting, but they are distant. And every faction is just an appendage to one of the Icons.

• The game revolves around Icons (major powers like the Emperor, Archmage, Elf Queen, High Druid, Lich King, Prince of Shadows, etc.).
• Players have positive, negative, or conflicted relationships with them.
• At the start of sessions (or adventures, or levels) Icon rolls generate story complications or advantages.

3. Innovative Combat​

d20 combat but it plays very differently:

• Escalation Die: Starting in the second round, players add a +1 to their attack rolls. Then +2 in the third round. And so on. Battles start with players feeling overmatched, but then the tide turns in their favor.
• No grid required: Uses abstract positioning instead of precise squares.
• Monster design: Monster abilities and tactics trigger off die rolls. This means GMs spend less time deciding what a monster does on their turn. It works great.

4. Backgrounds Replace Skill Lists​

Instead of rigid skill systems:

• Characters have freeform backgrounds (e.g., “+3 Former Imperial Scout”).
• Players argue how their background applies to a situation.

5. Traditional Classes, Unique Mechanics​

13th Age has all the standard D&D classes, and then some:

• Each class has bespoke mechanics. For example, Fighters, Chaos Mages, and Occultists all play very differently.
• You build your subclass from a collection of talents. Talents are big chunks of class features. Essentially, you get to design your own subclass.

6. Tone: Epic, Mythic, and “Big”​

• Characters start competent and scale quickly into world-shaping heroes.
• The setting assumes huge, iconic conflicts rather than local dungeon crawls.

If nothing else, 13th Age is a great game to inspire GMs. Icons, One Unique Thing, the Escalation Die, and Backgrounds over skills could all be ported in 5E or most other fantasy RPGs.

The published adventure design for 13th Age is also very cool, with an open ended approach similar to the 4E Neverwinter Campaign Setting.

Shadow of the Weird Wizard/Demon Lord
Created by Robert Schwalb, who helped design 5E and has credits going back to 3E.

Shadow of the Demon Lord and Shadow of the Weird Wizard take the familiar d20 chassis and strip it down into something leaner, meaner, and more modular than Dungeons & Dragons. Character power starts out at Shadowdark levels, progresses to low level D&D, and tops out at something equivalent to 7th or 8th level in 5E terms.

I love, love, love this game and wish more people played it.

1. Paths Instead of Classes​

• Instead of classes or subclasses, you build a character through Paths: Novice at 1st level, Expert at 3rd level, Master at 7th level.
• You can combine paths in any combination without prerequisites. So you can start as a Priest at 1st level, pick up the Barbarian path at 3rd level, and add the Archmage path at 7th level.
• Mix-and-match creates huge variety without complex builds. And nothing breaks. You get flexible characters without heavy optimization. Making characters is really, really fun.

2. My Favorite Magic System​

• Spells are organized into traditions that are thematic and intuitive.
• Want to fly? Learn the Air tradition. Want to cast fireball? Learn the Fire tradition. Want to teleport? Learn the Travel tradition. Want to make your enemies literally poop themselves to death? Learn the Forbidden tradition.
• Characters who choose sinister traditions accumulate madness, corruption, mutations, and scars.

3. Gritty Combat​

• Low HP scaling and high damage.
• You do not roll for initiative. In SotWW, monsters go first. Players can use their reaction to jump in and “gain the initiative”. SotDL handles this somewhat differently.
• Replace advantage and disadvantage with extra d6s (boons = add, banes = subtract). They cancel each other out. So 3 boons and 2 banes result in one boon. Roll 1d6 and add it to your d20.

4. Short Campaigns and Fast Leveling​

• The default is that adventures take one session, and characters level after each session. So campaigns last less than a dozen sessions.
• But you can go longer. My campaign lasted 50 sessions. IMHO the sweet spot is 20-40 sessions.

Thoughts?

Questions?

I really enjoy the class system of Shadow of the Weird Wizard, and the flexibility with the many permutations it provides. The spells are deceptively powerful. Even at low levels, some of them can pack a mean punch but often have a cost, particularly traditions like Chaos Magic.

I think my only complaint so far with it is that it really needs some better character sheets or a digital character generator/sheet as I find it can be a bit difficult to track the various bonuses to damage, boons and banes as you progress. (Would love recommendations if folks know some).

But overall, very enjoyable system to play.

Just a couple of short things:

1. While 13A movement is abstract, its positioning is not. It doesn't do a grid, but neither do miniature wargames and no one would describe their positioning as "abstract". It very much cares if you're next to an opponent and has the typical 3e era strong engagement control mechanics.

2. I'm very much onboard the Path and Boon/Bane mechanics in SotDL/WW. Admittedly the latter works as well only in the fact the target numbers only gust so high (25 if I'm recalling correctly). I'm a little grumpy that SotWW did not import over one of the shield-centric paths from Demon Lord, but maybe that'll come down the line.

I do think it can be subject to the problem with a lot of flexible class systems (both of these, far as that goes) that as you get up in levels you really need a cheat sheet to keep track of your options. This is hardly new for anyone who's had to deal with F20 spellcasters, but it might be a new experience for someone playing a martial. Not that I don't think its worth it, but its something to be aware of.

VashVet said:

I
I think my only complaint so far with it is that it really needs some better character sheets or a digital character generator/sheet as I find it can be a bit difficult to track the various bonuses to damage, boons and banes as you progress. (Would love recommendations if folks know some).

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Unfortunately, as I said, I just produced a separate cheatsheet.

(I'd also suggest this can be a particular problem if you're using the 1-level-an-adventure mode that at least SotDL encourages, because you don't get time to internalize what you've gotten at one level before a new one comes along. I find I have that problem even with PF2e sometimes, and its far more severe here).

Thomas Shey said:

Unfortunately, as I said, I just produced a separate cheatsheet.

(I'd also suggest this can be a particular problem if you're using the 1-level-an-adventure mode that at least SotDL encourages, because you don't get time to internalize what you've gotten at one level before a new one comes along. I find I have that problem even with PF2e sometimes, and its far more severe here).

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For the cheat sheet, that’s what I’m also having to do now as well, and I’m just playing a martial class.

Also, we did the 1 level per adventure for a few weeks because we wanted to speed through the different tiers prior to playing a full, honest to goodness campaign. I can’t imagine doing that for a campaign though - I like things to breathe a little.

I forgot to mention that SotDL has only 4 stats.

Thomas Shey said:

1. While 13A movement is abstract, its positioning is not. It doesn't do a grid, but neither do miniature wargames and no one would describe their positioning as "abstract". It very much cares if you're next to an opponent and has the typical 3e era strong engagement control mechanics.

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I've am definitely struggling with this. When we play with a map, there's a lot of interceptions. Without, there is not.

I personally think 13th Age is the best form of D&D for me and my tables. I would maybe bring things up a level though.

The OUTs, icon connections, and backgrounds lead to a constant fluidity to the definition of the game world that is defined equally by both sides of the screen. The game is written accordingly, with a lot of emphasis on "in your Dragon Empire [the published, default framework-setting], things may be one of these three ideas, or something different..." in the monsters, cities, even the icons themselves. Even the writing of the game is in a bit of a quantum superposition, with the authors offering different rules and rationales, with sidebars capturing their differences in opinion. It's all written casually, and is a very approachable game overall.

On the combat side, it is designed a lot like in 4e in terms of player power and some of the biggest innovations (bloodied, healing surges, clear statuses), but the system language is not as strict. Targeting is looser, with group attacks not needing to rely on specific shapes or sizes. Also notably, the monsters are defined with combat stats and unique powers, and all self-contained. My favorite part of them is the design is simple, but the powers easy to reuse and reskin. I also love that a lot of "limited use powers" for monsters just use die rolls to trigger occasionally: breath weapons retrigger on a d6, special attacks trigger if an attack roll is odd or even or 16+. It's very simple to run the mechanical end.

THEMNGMNT said:

I've am definitely struggling with this. When we play with a map, there's a lot of interceptions. Without, there is not.

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I could see that. 2E made some small changes to make intercepting situations a bit easier to identify, but some general positioning does generally help. You can run it just fine with theater of the mind, but I usually use a map/mat just to show generally where everything is.

VashVet said:

For the cheat sheet, that’s what I’m also having to do now as well, and I’m just playing a martial class.

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So was I. I just couldn't remember the various things that would give me boons or apply banes to opponents.

VashVet said:

Also, we did the 1 level per adventure for a few weeks because we wanted to speed through the different tiers prior to playing a full, honest to goodness campaign. I can’t imagine doing that for a campaign though - I like things to breathe a little.

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We did a whole campaign that way. It was--something.