D&D 5E (2024) Ravenloft: The Horrors Within preorder page lists the book's contents

tetrasodium said:

things are totally the same and there's nothing to be concerned about because players get to decide those toothless madness table traits just don't apply to their big bad pc

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Aside from the offensive treatment of mental illness in earlier editions of Ravenloft, you continue to be incapable of grasping the point that it’s the emotions of the players that matter in horror games, not the characters.

tetrasodium said:

I've never even seen it.

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Then why defend the rule we're commenting on (and generally agreed on is bad) if you don't know it?

tetrasodium said:

Absolutely yes, those same big bad pcs. Here you point out the critical function played by those 44 pages of new and revised bits of core rules making up chapter 3 that wotc has refused to supply for 5e and does not seem to be including on the 3rd try. Sure it was no big deal facing that dragon while covered in blood when backed by well known magic and powerful abilities, but a whole bunch of them changed in Ravenloft and that resulted in new risks to worry about.... Unless it's 5e Ravenloft, things are totally the same and there's nothing to be concerned about because players get to decide those toothless madness table traits just don't apply to their big bad pc

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That's unrealistic. You might get jumpscared for a moment at the spooky scary skeleton, but your dragon slaying warrior is then going to go 'ah, a skeleton, time to hit it so hard it does that satisfying ragdoll like a Skyrim skeleton'. It is not a threat.

Those 44 pages of rules don't increase horror at all. Its just a 'welcome to Ravenloft, screw you' rule.

I might actually do that Youtube video I've been pondering iny my head where I posit that 2e Ravenloft is Bad, Actually, y'know?

Paul Farquhar said:

Aside from the offensive treatment of mental illness in earlier editions of Ravenloft, you continue to be incapable of grasping the point that it’s the emotions of the players that matter in horror games, not the characters.

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Why would you expect someone to "grasp" a point that you have not tried to make? Let's pretend that you did try to just for discussion purposes though. You've made another bad assumption about relevance. I simply reject that unsupported point as a point not at all of relevant because Robbie Wheeling is not a member of my table and his PC Pardieu is not welcome tat My table.

Just like Darksun & Eberron, Ravenloft needs rules that apply a different set of baselines for PCs than forgotten realms because the genre's themes and tones require players to play their PCs in a way that said PC is aware of a different set of things to consider in risk calculations reward paths and concerns.

If a player is like Robbie Wheeling and finds themselves incapable of seeing their PC as a fictional character in a game rather than a core part of their identity, is suggest Betterhelp.com over expecting their gm to add a role along the lines of "licensed professional therapist" on top of epic story teller event coordinator & life coach. That's even something that I've said elsewhere in the past.

Mecheon said:

Then why defend the rule we're commenting on (and generally agreed on is bad) if you don't know it?

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You literally scrolled past the answer.

Paul Farquhar said:

Aside from the offensive treatment of mental illness in earlier editions of Ravenloft, you continue to be incapable of grasping the point that it’s the emotions of the players that matter in horror games, not the characters.

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100% with you on this. A good example of this is Edge of Midnight from Avantris, which really did a good job of instilling horror in the cast and the listeners. Mechanics may help a DM (and this book may expand from what the DMG had), but it is mostly on the narrative side that horror is conveyed, not mechanics.

tetrasodium said:

You literally scrolled past the answer.

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Similar rules existing in past editions doesn't mean those rules are good or should be brought back

I don't exactly see people clamouring for comeliness to return

Mecheon said:

I don't exactly see people clamouring for comeliness to return

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Level cap all the elves! Overthrow our pointy-eared oppressors!

The principle of a sanity/spiritual degradation/corruption/shadow check is a good one. I’ve seen it used well in several game systems to add another way of threatening PCs without just targeting easily recovered hp.

Level Up uses Stress - accumulating penalties that represent being shaken by traumatic corcumstances

CoC uses Sanity - a scaling stat that increases as you gain knowledge of the horrors of the world and that ultimately results in madness and player retirement.

WFRP uses Corruption - which represents the influence of chaos gods and can result in mutation or madness. The system has a nifty mechanic where you can do a dark deal with the DM to take a wicked act to reduce your corruption by a point or two and keep your character in play.

Adventures in Middle Earth 5e also uses Corruption - which represented the influence of the Shadow and measured by the Shadow Stat. Of the four it was probably the closest to what I imagine in Ravenloft. I’ll briefly summarize.

Adventures in Middle Earth Shadow Corruption

Shadow Points are a foil to Wisdom and sits alongside it. You accrue shadow points for witnessing or experiencing harrowing events; entering tainted areas, keeping tainted treasure; and perpetrating misdeeds. It’s the antidote to the murderhoboism that would kill a Ravenloft game.

When Shadow exceeds Wisdom then the PC gains the miserable condition and suffers disadvantage on all attack rolls and automatically fails Charisma checks. When a miserable character fails a check with a roll equal or less to the number of points their Shadow exceeds Wisdom then suffer a temporary Bout of Madness.

During a Bout of Madness the PC is out of control and could react with Rage, Wretchedness, Desperation, or Lust (the players choice). This is Boromir trying to take the ring, Denethor sabotaging Minis Tirith or Thorin turning his back. Once the bout is over the shadow points are reset but the PC is left with a Shadow Weakness trait and they gain 1 permanent Shadow Point, effectively leaving them slightly more vulnerable to the Shadow.

These Shadow Weaknesses can be Curse of Vengeance as they become more spiteful, bitter and brutal; Dragon-Sickness where greed and selfishness becomes the norm; Lure of Power where they become resentful and arrogant ; Lure of Secrets where they becomes secretive and treacherous; and the Wandering Madness where they become idle, uncaring and cowardly. Each of these weaknesses is represented by an escalating roleplaying flaw as characters go through the cycle. If a player falls a check that is related to their shadow weakness then the DM is allowed to interpret an aggravated result. For instance if a character with Curse of Vengeance tries to intimidate a crowd and fails then the DM could interpret that as part of the intimidation the character struck someone in their anger.

What I like about this system is that it combines roleplaying inspiration with mechanical effect in a way that doesn’t leave the character crippled. I think Cubicle 7 did a brilliant job replicating the many frailties and weaknesses of LotR characters that made them fallible without ruining their awesomeness - Boromir, Saruman, Denethor, Thorin and more.

I’m sure it could be easily adapted to Ravenloft.

tetrasodium said:

Past editions had a wide range of things that could be put under meaningful threat and plausible risk. That segment of "players" who only read the books and imagine playing can certainly imagine a whole bunch or risks, but at the table in actual play the rules of 5e don't support the gm with any meaningful risks that the players are still capable of being scared of risking. A third 5e ravenloft book is absolutely the place to start including rules revisions that would support the GM, yet none of the hype even hints at those sorts of revisions.

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I agree wholeheartedly with this point. I’ve discussed it before but removing ability damage and ability drain, not to mention neutering all the things that keyed off that mechanic (poison, disease, monster effects etc) reduced hp to the only meaning measure of harm which I think was a mistake.

I do think there is a solution built in 5(.5)e and that is the Monster Stat block. We see there are creatures that can have long term negative effecfs (the mummy) and those that can deal ability damage (the shadow). Creature stat blocks are within the DMs purview and I can easily see a Ravenloft Shadow where strength points are regained at a rate of 1 per sunrise rather than after a short rest.

If ever there was a setting that benefited from confounding player expectations then Ravenloft is it.

Paul Farquhar said:

No. It does have advice on how to instil those emotions in your players.

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What a pity. Another missed opportunity to restore Ravenloft to its original flavor.

Muso said:

What a pity. Another missed opportunity to restore Ravenloft to its original flavor.

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2nd edition wasn't the original Ravenloft. 1st edition Ravenloft had no dumb fear checks.