D&D General I’m Trying to Love D&D Again—and I’ve Got Some Complaints. Young Grognard posting.

I had a response that's no longer applicable so slightly modified ...

Every edition of the game has had parts I liked and didn't like. For TSR era games, it went from copying down a list of numbers on my sheet just to see if I hit to weird math and sometimes wanting to roll low and others high. How was I supposed to have a lucky D20 if it was supposed to go opposites all the time? :) There were also way too many save-or-die effects for my taste, although I think most of the groups I played with just avoided those or had some other kind of workaround.

When WOTC redid D&D it was like a breath of fresh air. Always adding, more consistent logic was great. But they went too far on locking down the options in 3e in an attempt to have consistency from one table to the next, but until you hit levels in the teens the game worked just fine. However, there was a pretty huge power level gap between people who were casual about the game and those that new how to optimize or searched the web to find the best builds. On the bright side it fed into my dice addiction because rolling a literal handful of dice with my two-weapon fighter required way, way too many dice and a chart.

The complexity when for example you have 6 attacks with physical damage plus multiple energy types along with as many buffs as the cleric could throw on you was a pretty big barrier, especially at higher levels. System mastery ruled the day, until even that wasn't enough unless you had made the right choices for your character. When you hit about level 14 or so and no matter how effective your character was you were just futzing around waiting for the optimized cleric or wizard to finish the fight in a single turn.

I switched to 4e because of the issues 3e had. With 4e, they tried to reinvent the game and in the short term I enjoyed it. But in the long term it simply didn't work for me or my friends. Unlike feeling like a game that loosely modeled fantasy action heroes, it felt like they started from a board game minis point of view and tried to add on D&D flavor. Toss in that they just tried to cram too many options in with interrupts and interrupts of interrupts, at high levels the game just slowed to a crawl. I think they were overly ambitious and perhaps it would have worked better if they had just focused on levels 1-10 on the first pass instead of going all the way up to 30. If I wanted to play an over the top anime game, I'd play something else.

About the time 5e was released I was ready to quit playing 4e because I simply enjoyed the game less and less. My fighter was no longer just someone really good at swinging a sword, they were magically pulling every creature around them in and turning into the Taz from Loony Toons hitting everything around him. Instead of an action movie hero set in a fantasy world, he was an anime character that for some reason couldn't use the same power twice in a row. You had to read every power separately, a pain point particularly when running public games because some people were inventive in their interpretations. Essentials tried to fix that but it was too little too late.

With 5e I felt like they had taken the best of everything that came before and made a game that wasn't perfect but achieved a blend of 3e and TSR editions with a dash of ideas from 4e. They probably leaned into some old-school aesthetics a bit too much (i.e. half-orcs live in slums but are tough), but they backed off of the WOTC idea that there was one true way to play. I know rulings over rules bugs some people, but I think it's part of what makes the game work for me.

Of course some people are going to prefer old school games, others miss the 3e customization or 4e's power structure. We all game for different reasons. But for me 5e and 5.5e are the best D&D games I've ever played.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

With 4e, they tried to reinvent the game and in the short term I enjoyed it. But in the long term it simply didn't work for me or my friends. Unlike feeling like a game that loosely modeled fantasy action heroes, it felt like they started from a board game minis point of view and tried to add on D&D flavor.
Close. Turns out that it was actually World of Warcraft, at least according to Ben Riggs.
 

They won the edition war by pillorying it over and over again, mostly with disingenuous or even outright false accusations. The "Fighters shooting lightning out of their [censored]." The "shouting hands back on"--an edition-war rallying cry which Mearls himself used in a podcast. (Following it with "I'm being ridiculous" does not excuse it, sorry.)
Nevermind.
 

Close. Turns out that it was actually World of Warcraft, at least according to Ben Riggs.

It took inspiration from a lot of games, but I was avoiding the "It was a video game" even though that's what much of the logic was obviously based on. What they never seemed to realize though was the difference between a video game doing all of the effects, interrupts and counters quickly and how long that would end up taking in a tabletop game.

Didn't help that management had been sold a vision of a VTT that could do it all that was doomed to failure from the start.
 

It depends on what you mean by player skill - is that a reference to "skilled play" which is the OSR buzzword for playing largely via exploring the environment while avoiding rolling dice as much as possible because you're doing a lot more poking, prodding, and otherwise nudging every damn pixel until you figure out what the DM is thinking or has hidden in his notes?
Exactly. That's player skill, in the sense I mean it anyway.
I'd argue that 4e is very much not that because 4e still has the skill roll buttons on the character to avoid all of that.
Which hews far closer to system mastery.
Otherwise, "player skill" would be largely a useless term as each edition of D&D (hell, every game in general that isn't just roll and move) is going to involve some kind of player skill - whether its understanding narrative beats in your typical D&D adventure, tactical manipulation on the board, or building your character in as clever a way as you can.
Agreed.
 

It depends on what you mean by player skill - is that a reference to "skilled play" which is the OSR buzzword for playing largely via exploring the environment while avoiding rolling dice as much as possible because you're doing a lot more poking, prodding, and otherwise nudging every damn pixel until you figure out what the DM is thinking or has hidden in his notes? I'd argue that 4e is very much not that because 4e still has the skill roll buttons on the character to avoid all of that.

Otherwise, "player skill" would be largely a useless term as each edition of D&D (hell, every game in general that isn't just roll and move) is going to involve some kind of player skill - whether its understanding narrative beats in your typical D&D adventure, tactical manipulation on the board, or building your character in as clever a way as you can.
I agree. And I'll take skill at roleplaying and group problem solving over skill with game mechanics any day of the week! I think it's kind of surprising when people don't consider those things as "skilled play."
 

As was already discussed earlier in the thread, if I think being asked for basic courtesies like using someone's correct name or pronouns is an imposition on my game time, I'm the problem. If I have no issue with including tropes like political marriages or captured princesses in my game but balk at a couple of gay NPCs being portrayed/featured in plot in the exact same way as straight ones, I'm the person bringing real life problems (prejudice) into the game.
You would really hate me. IT took me 10 months to get a persons name right. Now I could tell you their last three pcs nearly correct. I hope you have name tag with pronouns on you when you enter the store.
And you up the creek if not a good southern name.
 


You would really hate me. IT took me 10 months to get a persons name right. Now I could tell you their last three pcs nearly correct. I hope you have name tag with pronouns on you when you enter the store.
And you up the creek if not a good southern name.
I'm bad with remembering people's names also. Faces, no problem, but names, those are uphill battle. I miss army days, at least everyone had surname tag on uniform, so rank+surname just did the trick. When it comes to players, i'll tie face to a class or race or something, but at least during the game, character's names are repeated multiple times. People usually introduce themselves only once.
 

I agree. And I'll take skill at roleplaying and group problem solving over skill with game mechanics any day of the week! I think it's kind of surprising when people don't consider those things as "skilled play."
Yeah, that’s why I always consider it a buzzword. Buzzwords are largely about spin, in this case the spin that this sort of play reflects more player skill than saying “I search the room” and making a single skill check.
 

Recent & Upcoming Releases

Remove ads

Top