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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 6580193" data-attributes="member: 4937"><p>4e implemented this by making 1st level PCs effectively a 3HD creature. This opened up additional space beneath the 1st level character for things of much less capability. In 1e for example, a 1st level PC might well have just 1 h.p. There is no room beneath that for things that are less fragile, so it becomes very difficult to distinguish between say a man, a mouse, and a wasp. 4e doesn't have that problem, as it would be easy to come up with stats that distinguished the three. I wasn't a fan of 4e, but I admit that this was one area that influenced my thinking, although my implementation is considerably different.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Well, yes, I also support the 'zero to hero' concept, though as I said I think that in practice there was always at least some room below 1st level for less heroic characters than the PC's. </p><p></p><p>I don't agree however at in any edition, 1st level characters are falling short of concept. That viewpoint in my opinion comes out of players coming from video games - in Path of Exile (I'm currently playing) you might well say that your concept is, "Lays down totems that shoot ice at someone" and then be able to note that such a concept was not playable until a considerable amount of time and resources were spent. But it really has no place in my opinion in PnP games which aren't about mechanical builds. In D&D, all PC's begin with a base concept of, "I'm at the beginning of my career." Your concept is always forestoried, and not backstoried, and is set not by what is possible within the game rules, but by what is provided within the narrative. You may, on behalf of your PC, have the goal of being something great and powerful, but that's not your concept.</p><p></p><p>Other PnP games allow for midcareer concepts or even promote it as normal. Indeed, D&D could always support a midcareer concept by introducing a character of higher level with many adventures and life experiences behind him. In the Dragon Lance modules, this explicitly is true if you use the stock characters. But to expect a 1st level character to have his career behind him is strange, and to my thinking isn't part of D&D's core story of play.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p> I agree it's a little weird to have 1st=3rd (or even 5th), but, OTOH, starting at -2nd level would've been a little weird, too. I suppose they could've started each tier at 1st. Apprentice 1-4, then pick up at 1st again.</p></blockquote><p>[/QUOTE]</p>
[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 6580193, member: 4937"] 4e implemented this by making 1st level PCs effectively a 3HD creature. This opened up additional space beneath the 1st level character for things of much less capability. In 1e for example, a 1st level PC might well have just 1 h.p. There is no room beneath that for things that are less fragile, so it becomes very difficult to distinguish between say a man, a mouse, and a wasp. 4e doesn't have that problem, as it would be easy to come up with stats that distinguished the three. I wasn't a fan of 4e, but I admit that this was one area that influenced my thinking, although my implementation is considerably different. Well, yes, I also support the 'zero to hero' concept, though as I said I think that in practice there was always at least some room below 1st level for less heroic characters than the PC's. I don't agree however at in any edition, 1st level characters are falling short of concept. That viewpoint in my opinion comes out of players coming from video games - in Path of Exile (I'm currently playing) you might well say that your concept is, "Lays down totems that shoot ice at someone" and then be able to note that such a concept was not playable until a considerable amount of time and resources were spent. But it really has no place in my opinion in PnP games which aren't about mechanical builds. In D&D, all PC's begin with a base concept of, "I'm at the beginning of my career." Your concept is always forestoried, and not backstoried, and is set not by what is possible within the game rules, but by what is provided within the narrative. You may, on behalf of your PC, have the goal of being something great and powerful, but that's not your concept. Other PnP games allow for midcareer concepts or even promote it as normal. Indeed, D&D could always support a midcareer concept by introducing a character of higher level with many adventures and life experiences behind him. In the Dragon Lance modules, this explicitly is true if you use the stock characters. But to expect a 1st level character to have his career behind him is strange, and to my thinking isn't part of D&D's core story of play. I agree it's a little weird to have 1st=3rd (or even 5th), but, OTOH, starting at -2nd level would've been a little weird, too. I suppose they could've started each tier at 1st. Apprentice 1-4, then pick up at 1st again.[/QUOTE] [/QUOTE]
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