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<blockquote data-quote="redrover" data-source="post: 4395130" data-attributes="member: 70799">All: Nice info. Will be checking out the other half-orcs.&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; erik: This half-orc is not mine, at core it is arcady’s. I just liked the approach so much I wanted to see it finished, and have given it a nudge.&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; Nivenus: I did add the racial trait Cunning Leader, and will discuss it now.&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; Unbalanced or Useless: Fair question. We may have a different idea of racial traits. For me, racial traits are elements used to construct a unified vision of a race. I prefer role-models, as opposed to power-ups. (One of my rant issues is the WotC decision to take penalties out of PC race design.)&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; The first consideration was this: Should the Warlord class be a core class option for a half-orc? My post assumed an answer of yes, for reasons laid out by arcady in this thread.&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; The second issue was execution. How do you go about doing this, seeing that neither Intelligence nor Charisma are half-orc strengths?&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; (I rejected just leaving Warlord selection subject to the chance of having a high Cha or Int. The role of war leader of a non-cleric type seems too good a fit for half-orcs to leave it so limited. I really wanted the half-orc to have a solid tripod of options: fighter [barbarian], cleric, warlord. I would be really unhappy to get PH2 and find out they get barbarian, cleric, fighter; too limiting).&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; Of the two attributes, which is weakest for a half-orc? Traditionally, I feel, while Int has generally been pegged low, Cha most often seemed to have been pegged lower. Thus, the sort of warlord a half-orc would likely be was Tactical, rather than Inspirational. &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; Allowing a swap of Wis for the Warlord class functions based on Int seemed a close fit with this.&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; (I rejected just adding a feat to allow Wis to serve as Int. First, a broad feat would create a complete dump stat, which would distort the whole point-building system for characters. Second, a feat would burn one the half-orc’s 1st level feat, leaving him somewhat worse off than a warlord of another race.&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; (I suppose we might add a clause reducing the Warlord Int-based abilities by any Int attribute penalty as well, but this starts to get a bit fiddly, and I'd rather not consider this step unless actual testing proves the existence of a balance problem.)&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; So much for the background thinking. If you have another design solution, I’d love to see it.&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; I’m not sure I understand&nbsp; this statement:&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; “On the one hand it gives an advantage to warlords that none of the other races [have?] for any of the other classes.”&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; So does this half-orc build add any power to the Warlord class? I don’t see it. If you do, please suggest post something specific. What does this half-orc build add to the Warlord class that it wouldn’t add to any other class the player picks?&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; Maybe you mean the number of racial traits becomes unbalanced? Let’s look.[code]&nbsp; &nbsp; Dragonborn:&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 3&nbsp; Dwarf:&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 5&nbsp; Eladrin:&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 6&nbsp; Elf:&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 6&nbsp; Half-Elf:&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 3&nbsp; Halfling:&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 3&nbsp; Human:&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 4&nbsp; Tiefling:&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 3&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; Half-Orc*&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 3 + the one under discussion&nbsp;&nbsp; [/code]*My own thought is that this makes the half-orc total effectively 3, since Cunning Leader is a specific gateway into a specific class and adds only some flexibility in career choice. Once a class selection is made, then CL drops out of consideration. It's a feature, not a bug.&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; The fact that the half-elf/half-orc symmetry takes a hit is unfortunate, but I wouldn’t consider that a balance issue, as such.&nbsp;&nbsp; Comment?</blockquote>

[QUOTE="redrover, post: 4395130, member: 70799"] [B]All: [/B]Nice info. Will be checking out the other half-orcs. [B]erik:[/B] This half-orc is [I]not[/I] mine, at core it is arcady’s. I just liked the approach so much I wanted to see it finished, and have given it a nudge. [B]Nivenus:[/B] I did add the racial trait [I]Cunning Leader, [/I]and will discuss it now[I].[/I] [I]Unbalanced or Useless:[/I] Fair question. We may have a different idea of racial traits. For me, racial traits are elements used to construct a unified vision of a race. I prefer role-models, as opposed to power-ups. (One of my rant issues is the WotC decision to take penalties out of PC race design.) The first consideration was this: Should the Warlord class be a core class option for a half-orc? My post assumed an answer of [I]yes,[/I] for reasons laid out by arcady in this thread. The second issue was execution. How do you go about doing this, seeing that neither Intelligence nor Charisma are half-orc strengths? (I rejected just leaving Warlord selection subject to the [U]chance[/U] of having a high Cha or Int. The role of war leader of a non-cleric type seems too good a fit for half-orcs to leave it so limited. I really wanted the half-orc to have a solid tripod of options: fighter [barbarian], cleric, warlord. I would be really unhappy to get PH2 and find out they get barbarian, cleric, fighter; too limiting). Of the two attributes, which is weakest for a half-orc? Traditionally, I feel, while Int has generally been pegged low, Cha most often seemed to have been pegged lower. Thus, the sort of warlord a half-orc would likely be was Tactical, rather than Inspirational. Allowing a swap of Wis for the Warlord class functions based on Int seemed a close fit with this. (I rejected just adding a [U]feat[/U] to allow Wis to serve as Int. First, a broad feat would create a complete dump stat, which would distort the whole point-building system for characters. Second, a feat would burn one the half-orc’s 1st level feat, leaving him somewhat worse off than a warlord of another race. (I suppose we might add a clause reducing the Warlord Int-based abilities by any Int attribute penalty as well, but this starts to get a bit fiddly, and I'd rather not consider this step unless actual testing proves the existence of a balance problem.) So much for the background thinking. If you have another design solution, I’d love to see it. I’m not sure I understand this statement: [COLOR=#33cccc]“On the one hand it gives an advantage to warlords that none of the other races [COLOR=White][have?][/COLOR] for any of the other classes.”[/COLOR] So does this half-orc build add any power to the Warlord class? I don’t see it. If you do, please suggest post something specific. What does this half-orc build add to the Warlord class that it wouldn’t add to any other class the player picks? Maybe you mean the [U]number[/U] of racial traits becomes unbalanced? Let’s look. [code] Dragonborn: 3 Dwarf: 5 Eladrin: 6 Elf: 6 Half-Elf: 3 Halfling: 3 Human: 4 Tiefling: 3 Half-Orc* 3 + the one under discussion [/code]*My own thought is that this makes the half-orc total effectively 3, since [I]Cunning Leader[/I] is a specific gateway into a specific class and adds only some flexibility in career choice. Once a class selection is made, then CL drops out of consideration. It's a feature, not a bug. The fact that the half-elf/half-orc symmetry takes a hit is unfortunate, but I wouldn’t consider that a balance issue, as such. Comment? [/QUOTE]

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