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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Arkhandus" data-source="post: 2111892" data-attributes="member: 13966">Edit: You know, you seemed to completely misread my post above, you assumed I was saying that non-combat benefits are unimportant, I was saying exactly the opposite, yeesh.  Re-read it.  I was telling you that ECL is normally higher than CR because ECL considers more factors, not just combat effectiveness.  BTW, being able to fireball for 1d8 damage at will is more useful than a long sword, because trolls and such don't regenerate fire damage, and monsters with Damage Reduction don't ignore fire damage.  End Edit........You do know, don't you, that the Dungeon Master's Guide has around half a page describing the difference between Challenge Rating and Effective Character Level sort of stuff, right?  I'm not talking about NPCs being judged differently for lack of spotlight time, that's not even relevant to my argument at the moment.  Perhaps you only have the SRD though, and thus couldn't have read the DMG's Adventures, Campaigns, and most especially Rewards chapter.CR is strictly a measuring system for how tough an opponent is likely to be in combat, under completely normal circumstances, with no unusual advantages or disadvantages in situation, against a party of 4 player characters with an equal number of levels in PC classes, specifically one fighter, one cleric, one rogue, and one wizard.  The DMG explains as much.But Player Characters are more than just combat machines, and they face challenges besides battle.  Their ability to cross ravines and steep cliffs, negotiate with the Thieves' Guildmaster for safe passage through their turf, talk the dragon into not eating them because they can offer valuable services for only a pittance, and sneaking past the goblin warrens without alerting the 200+ goblin berserkers that would like very much to spit them over an open fire and eat them, are also very important abilities.  A PC is made up of more than just combat stats.  Their other abilities matter, and have an influence on how good the character is.  That's why characters don't get infinite skill points to spend on Craft, or infinite bonuses on Diplomacy, or all kinds of nifty cantrips at-will just to make life convenient and easy outside of battle.I'm not presenting house-rules in this particular post.  The DMG explains it too.  CR is not the same as ECL.  CR is for judging a monster's, NPC's, or PC's combat ability under normal circumstances.  ECL is for judging how useful and effective the PC is overall, considering the wide range of things an adventurer tends to deal with, not just hacking/blasting through monsters.  So ECL tends to be higher than CR.  A Level Adjustment may be lower than the CR, but the total Effective Character Level is always equal to or higher than the Challenge Rating.The suggestions I made in my post above are valid and fair based on both the DMG's guidelines and suggestions, and by what monster races get for their ECL/LA/HD in the Monster Manual.  Go ahead, check the 3.5 System Reference Document at Wizards of the Coast's website, and examine a few monster's entries there, especially some humanoids such as bugbears, and giants such as ogres and ogre magi.</blockquote>

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