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Message: <blockquote data-quote="bret" data-source="post: 14564" data-attributes="member: 713">I said they come close to having as many skill points as rogue. You said that the rogue gets over twice as many skill points as a regular class.Standard array is 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8.Normally, the wizard is going to put the 15 in Int while the Rogue puts in in Dex.Many people put the 14 in Con. Doesn't matter what class you are, the additional hit points are extremely useful.If the rogue puts the 13 or 12 in Int they will have 8 + 1 skill points per level, while the Wizard has 2 + 2 skill points per level.Take it to level 4 and the Wizard jumps to a total of 5 vs. 9.Take it to level 8 and the Wizard goes into the LoreMaster PrC so they have 4 + 3 = 7 vs. 9. Note that the LoreMaster doesn't give up any spellcasting ability to get all those nifty skill points.Take it to level 12 and the Wizard is at 8 vs. 9.Now figure in magical items. The Wizard is likely to have a Headband of Int, while the Rogue is more likely to go after Gloves of Dex or Amulet of Health.At 12th level, the Wizard/Loremaster should be able to afford an item of Int +4, so they are at 10 vs. 9. Even if the Rogue had put the 14 in Int, they would be at 10 vs. 10 skill points per level.Even a straight Wizard is most likely getting 8 skill points a level.Notice I did this with the Standard Array. Allow a different point buy system (where the wizard can start with an 18), and the results tend to converge a lot faster.The rogue certainly doesn't have over twice as many skill points as the wizard, and when you get to the high levels it is possible that the wizard (because of the HUGE advantage they have from concentrating on only one attribute) could exceed the number of skill points per level that a Rogue gets. As I said, it depends on the method used for determining attributes but the Wizard can come close to as many skill points per level as a Rogue.Rather than have someone else speak for you reapersaurus, I am still interested in what you believe the rogue's place in a group is. Show me how the rogue is something that would still be feared after you either limit it to one sneak attack per round or do something else to reduce it's combat effectiveness.[ Edit: Fixed minimum level required for LoreMaster. Need 10 ranks in two knowledge skills, the skill caps prevent this from happening until 7th level. Minimum level for Loremaster is 8th. ]</blockquote>

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