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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 6073188" data-attributes="member: 6696971">Coordination and agility primary + Explosive athleticism secondary vs the ability to instantaneously, correctly process multiple physical vectors including posture, velocity and spatial orientation/geometry and have the reflex command of your musculature and coordination to bring that information processing to bring that information to bare.So basically, in 5e terms:  Dexterity + Strength vs Intelligence + Wisdom + Dexterity.  D&D doesn't do that level of granularity well so we abstract it to...what?  Dex vs Intelligence?  Ugly but probably the closest as I would say the speed and accuracy of the information processing (not the noticing of a feint) is the most important aspect for the defender.Probably Wisdom vs Wisdom here. Probably Dexterity + Strength vs Wisdom here.  Coordination/agility is predominant for the offender...so, Dexterity vs Wisdom. Strength + Dexterity vs Dexterity + Intelligence + Wisdom.  Explosiveness vs agility/coordination is predominate here...so Strength vs Dexterity.Intelligence + Dexterity vs Wisdom here.  Canniness and guile + coordination vs perception.I just don't agree.  At all.  We have this "Charisma equals Bluff" non sequitur attached to our  D&D reasoning because it was couched this way starting with 3.0 and  we just accepted it.  Sure, it counts this way in SOCIAL settings where  persuasiveness, force of personality, leadership, sense of self/presence  is predominant.  However, in physical situations it falls almost  exclusively under the purview of Intelligence (canniness, reasoning,  information processing and guile) + Dexterity (requisite coordination/agility needed for the body control to pull it off) + Strength (explosiveness required to be "faster than your opponents mind" and destroy their instantaneous calculations of velocity/spatial orientation/etc).  Most of the guys I play with have (these are my pals...but its true) little to no persuasiveness, force of personality, leadership, sense of self/presence (Charisma) but they can cross someone over or stutter step or execute a pump fake and leave a defender in the dust.  I always liked the Flick of the Wrist (Dexterity) modeling of a physical deke/fake much better than Bluff (Charisma) for a Combat Feint.In total, you are controlling them.  You are dictating what they do because their information processing skills + their coordination + their explosiveness + their perception is undone by your own.  We've done this dance before.  There is no "free will" in instantaneous physical exchanges.  There are subconscious (velocity/spatial orientation/geometry) calculations and are you coordinated/fast enough to stay with me?D&D doesn't do this well as it abstracts complex physical processes with one attacking score vs one defense.  Further it is obfuscated by the legacy issue of the (physical) combat feint (where coordination/agility/explosiveness are predominant) inexplicably being associated with Charisma.</blockquote>

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