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Message: <blockquote data-quote="tetrasodium" data-source="post: 9626585" data-attributes="member: 93670">It was already mentioned by [USER=50987]@CleverNickName[/USER] but I'm going to take it a step further on why these aren't just white boarding problems because most on my 5e games have gone into the low to mid teens.  That might put me outside the average, but it very much runs 5e through the acid test and exposed the deep cracks that result.  In past editions players were either largely denied extreme CharOp for various reasons∆ needed to clear significant hurdles just to qualify for extreme CharOp and those hurdles just got harder to clear the further they went with CharOp.  5e didn't just lower the hurdles, it removed the very idea and took quite a few steps to ensure that players could walk up to the table with  a fairly decent baseline PC with no obvious crippling flaws to serve as warning signs for impending CharOp on a <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleeper_(car)" target="_blank">sleeper</a> that suddenly explodes in power with a single level & might do so on more than one occasion.Because the bar is set so low it becomes very difficult for the GM to police or reign in these sleeper builds without also coming off like comic book guy or some other negative stereotype controlling gm.  Even if the gm notices and tries to put their foot down they are still faced with a system that almost encourages the player to declare total coincidence and just jump to a slightly different but still very broken build.  Yes some of those things were always technically possible with sleeper builds to lesser degrees, but magic items expectations/requirements/churn always left the gm with an overriding crowbar they could use to wrench the dial back a bit or divert from hyperfocused power to still very focused but molded into something wider and less over the top... Magic items either make it worse or lack the mechanical hooks needed to divert narrowly focused apex power towards a broader direction.∆ not really an option early on or 4e's lack of traditional mukticlassing as an option in favor of umm... Hybrid classes(?) as the option</blockquote>

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