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<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 5504649" data-attributes="member: 87792">Whereas things like Backstabber, Frostcheese, and Nimble Blade are new?&nbsp; Oh wait, all three come from the PHB1.&nbsp;&nbsp;The main difference in terms of to hit between a HOFL Thief and a PHB Rogue is Expertise.&nbsp; Oh, and Backstabber vs encounter powers.&nbsp;&nbsp;A damage buff for the warlord?&nbsp; And for OAs, come to think of it.&nbsp; Barely relevant.&nbsp;&nbsp;Where?&nbsp; (Remember Jagged has a weak crit effect).&nbsp; And which of them match up to Daggermaster?&nbsp;&nbsp;Charges I'll grant.&nbsp;&nbsp;Possibly they can.&nbsp; But with the single exception of chargemonkeys, nothing currently around matches up to pre-errata Orbizards, Ranger Daggermasters, Stormwardens, Bloodmages, Fey Slashers, Frostcheese (especially Frostcheese Ranger Daggermasters), fighters with 4 attacks for a L3 encounter power, et al.&nbsp;&nbsp;While taking away the high end offence...&nbsp;&nbsp;That was a fault in the design, not one of power creep.&nbsp; I'd use MM3 math against PHB-only PCs.&nbsp;&nbsp;Only if the DM is using the same level of monster rather than the same level of challenge.&nbsp; Fights of a level that would have been a cakewalk are now nailbiting - as Ageri illustrates.&nbsp; If the DM doesn't adapt, there's trouble.&nbsp; If the DM uses lower level critters, things are fine.&nbsp;&nbsp;They don't.&nbsp; You just use lower level MM3 monsters and therefore they effectively have lower HP whatever the actual numbers.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 5504649, member: 87792"] Whereas things like Backstabber, Frostcheese, and Nimble Blade are new? Oh wait, all three come from the PHB1. The main difference in terms of to hit between a HOFL Thief and a PHB Rogue is Expertise. Oh, and Backstabber vs encounter powers. A damage buff for the warlord? And for OAs, come to think of it. Barely relevant. Where? (Remember Jagged has a weak crit effect). And which of them match up to Daggermaster? Charges I'll grant. Possibly they can. But with the single exception of chargemonkeys, [I]nothing[/I] currently around matches up to pre-errata Orbizards, Ranger Daggermasters, Stormwardens, Bloodmages, Fey Slashers, Frostcheese [I](especially [/I]Frostcheese Ranger Daggermasters)[I], [/I]fighters with 4 attacks for a L3 encounter power, et al. While taking away the high end offence... That was a fault in the design, not one of power creep. I'd use MM3 math against PHB-only PCs. Only if the DM is using the same level of monster rather than the same level of challenge. Fights of a level that would have been a cakewalk are now nailbiting - as Ageri illustrates. If the DM doesn't adapt, there's trouble. If the DM uses lower level critters, things are fine. They don't. You just use lower level MM3 monsters and therefore they effectively have lower HP whatever the actual numbers. [/QUOTE]

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