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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Aegeri" data-source="post: 5505379" data-attributes="member: 78116">None of your arguments or points has any relevance to the fact power creep has done zero to combat difficulty - otherwise why on earth does this thread exist in the first place? PCs were wiping the absolute floor with monsters in paragon/epic from the start. That PCs were wiping the floor with monsters several years later has nothing to do with power creep and everything to do with poor paragon/epic monster design. Now monsters are competitive completely with PCs - despite this so called "Power creep". There is no issue with challenging characters with current MM3 monsters, which is pretty much the experience of everyone who has played epic with MM3 creatures has said.The only logical conclusion is that the problem was never PC power creep - it was the fact monsters sucked at paragon and epic. And the vast majority of it is errata to the original players handbook. It's because the most broken stuff in 4E was right in the first book. Personally not a single thing you wrote as imbalanced bothers me one bit. Bloodmages that could end encounters instantly? That bothered me. Close burst 20 stun on hit/daze on miss powers? That bothered me. Being able to grant infinite attacks? Oh yeah that bothered me. The original 3 attack + mods rain of blows? That bothered me. Destructive Salutation combined with spamming it with Archmage? That still bothers me. The Eternal Trickster ED (which is just absurd)? That still bothers me.I mean I could go on, but half the things that provide major problems in 4E still are all in that original PHB. The original PHB got massacred by errata because it had the highest amount of broken stuff. Other things have been errata'ed as well, but nowhere near the extent of the original PHB and bear in mind - I had to deal with all that absurd nonsense before errata. If you haven't played epic with current errata + MM3 vs. experience playing with NO errata pre-MM3 I have to be honest: You just haven't any idea how bad epic 4E got originally. I'm really not trying to be offensive, it's just a statement of fact that the game has gone down in absurdity and overpowered crap - not up. If you have that experience of dealing with all the majorly absurd pre-errata nonsense like bloodmages - I really really hate the pre-errata bloodmage if my sheer level of absolute hatred doesn't clearly come through in my posts - compared to now, it's night and day. Current PCs are very accurate and have some great powers, but there isn't the sheer "I end this encounter round 1, progress with 4 rounds of just whacking things to death while taking no damage" that existed before. Quite frankly the original PHB has stuff so much better than what has come out later, including a guaranteed way of basically ensuring CA every round with extra damage (Lasting Frost/Wintertouched) - I can't believe we're having a power creep argument. Expertise feats fix a hole within the games maths and recent ones provide an extra benefit onto your "Feat tax". They really fix something that should have been fixed at the beginning. But I don't think current PCs are significantly more powerful at all compared to that original party. They are actually less absurd because the amount of truly 100% broken stuff is gone in 4E because of errata - it's actually more the case later stuff is underpowered compared with many PHB options. I mean right now you asked me if I would take a party of level 30 characters built with all options now vs. MM3 monsters.Or a group of level 30 characters built with options from the PHB on release vs. MM1 monsters.My answer is going to be really obvious.</blockquote>

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