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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Riastlin" data-source="post: 5506101" data-attributes="member: 94022">I would hardly call 20% of the errata being in one book as a drop in the bucket.  Its actually probably a little over 20% given the amount of padding in the errata document (each book starting on a fresh page).  I think the 20% figure is particularly noteworthy given the "dozens" of new books argument.   To be sure, there is plenty of errata in the newer books, but the percentage coming from PHB is certainly the greatest.  PCs started out being much better at Epic than the monsters were (keep in mind that Aegeri's arguments were not with heroic, but with epic).  PCs don't really flex their muscles until they are in paragon (and particularly mid-paragon).   Irontooth was a brutal encounter, not a brutal monster.  The encounter was brutal because it was really two encounters at once.  That is almost always going to give the PCs a run for the money.  Its the same problem many groups had with the White Shrine encounter in Shadowrift of Umbraforge.  Granted, insubstantial-weakening-regenerating wraiths didn't help (and wraiths were one of the bigger design mishaps around, particularly if the DM put a bunch of them together), but the real killer was if the encounter triggered before the previous one ended (which happened quite a bit). Ironically, the White Shrine encounter actually became more difficult with the release of more books and options.  With PHB 1 only, roughly 1 in 4 characters would have good access to radiant attacks.  As primal, and psionic classes were introduced to the game, it became a lot more likely that a party might not have radiant attacks in their arsenal (and radiant attacks make White Shrine a fairly easy encounter).   Now, to be fair, I do think that one area of power creep that exists is in the area of surgeless healing.  Certainly it became much more widespread (particularly if somebody played a pacifist cleric) and that was a definite boost.  Ironic though that its a defensive boost and not an offensive one though, and as such things like expertise are not really influencing it that much.  I'd be curious to see how much of the errata is devoted to surgeless healing as my suspiscion is that its likely several pages by the time you look at all the different feats, powers, features, and items that were hit by it.  Even then, it usually wasn't a problem but for one specific build (and a build that many soon found uninteresting at that).   At any rate, in the short term, my players are definitely feeling the change to MM3 numbers and its definitely having an effect.  However, I also think that they will adjust.  Note, that's not saying that new abilities will come out that cause power creep.  Rather, they'll just learn how to use what they already have better.  Whereas before, tactics only somewhat mattered, now they definitely matter.  Sometimes the avenger needs to just use his bow and basic ranged attack rather than risk a dirt nap.  Focusing fire is even more important now to a large extent.  Placement and defenses definitely need to be considered, etc.  My guess is that within a level or two they'll have figured it out.  It won't be because of the new feats/utilities so much as realizing "Hey, if we just do this."</blockquote>

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