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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Bacon Bits" data-source="post: 8282155" data-attributes="member: 6777737">The flavor is not what's holding 5e Dark Sun back. It's all the missing mechanics.Dark Sun isn't just a setting. It's both a deconstruction of the default high fantasy setting and lore, and a total conversion of the AD&D rules. There's virtually nothing in the game rules that was left unchanged from the base game. The game goes so far as to list spell descriptions that were modified or eliminated. Even alignment has extended, optional rules in Dark Sun because the game world doesn't really work with alignment.Look, 5e Dark Sun needs game rules for:Races or subraces: mul, thri-kreen, Athasian half-giant (and not just "LOL use goliath"), Athasian dwarf, Athasian elf, Athasian halfling.Classes or subclasses: preserver, defiler, gladiator, templar (especially NPC stats), Athasian psionicist, elemental clerics, elemental druids, Athasian bard, trader.Other missing mechanics or rules: Athasian psionics, psionic wild talents (which all DS PCs are), expanded travel & survival rules and mechanics (heat, water, etc.), alternate weapon and armor materials, crude weapon rules, piecemeal armor, new weapons and armor, defiling rules and mechanics, Athasian vehicles, Athasian monsters, Athasian mounts, NPC blocks, etc., etc., etc.That's just to reach parity with AD&D Dark Sun Campaign Setting.So, you say, "Oh, they've already published this before." No, they haven't. Not in a manner that's usable for 5e. The DSCS came with a 100 page Rules Book and everything in that was entirely new and altered mechanics. The structure of the Rules Book matches the structure of the PHB because the changes are that extensive. This is a book for the players of a Dark Sun campaign. The Wanderer's Journal that details the world and lore of Athas was the shorter of the two books in that box. And DSCS didn't detail the rules for psionics! Dark Sun has always been 50% lore and 50% rules overhaul. No other campaign setting did that.You know how much time Planescape devotes to new PC rules in the original Player's Guide? 3 pages for new races, no new classes, then one page per faction over the next 16 pages. Everything else is for the DM, detailing the 16 factions, describing the 16 outer planes, describing Sigil, describing Outlands, and then trying to explain how to run a campaign in this unwieldly mess. You know how many new spells there are? Two. And they're in the DM book.The reason I haven't homebrewed Dark Sun is because it's a monumental amount of effort. I've tried doing it. It's literally like rewriting the entire PHB. The reason I'm not using existing homebrews is because they're usually incomplete, often poorly designed, or otherwise not fit for purpose. That's not meant to attack those who have done the work, more a reflection on the difficulty of the task. There's like a dozen new or heavily modified major mechanics in Dark Sun. It's not a trivial thing to design or convert. Playing a different game system with Dark Sun would be just as much if not more work to accomplish, and even that sets aside that Dark Sun is quintessentially D&D more than any other setting. The reason I don't simply use the original rules entirely as presented is because... AD&D pretty much sucks as a game system at the table. It's a 1970s design with more issues than National Geographic. I love it, but I'm never playing it again.If WotC wants to introduce new things that's fine. I'm very happy to see new narrative elements or adventures. However, my interest and what I think is the actual draw to the setting is in playing the setting largely as originally presented, especially the original boxed sets: a "points of darkness" setting. If they release new content that runs contrary to the original vision or themes of the setting I'm not going to be happy. I'm not interested in WotC adding new races or classes, and if there's anything that WotC has proven it's that making everything a kitchen sink is their marketing strategy. I'm not really interested in a kitchen sink Dark Sun book. That's the antithesis of what DS is to me. Dark Sun as a whole is almost entirely defined by what is absent than it is by what they added. Weapons and armor are absent, so here are rules for doing that. Gold and metal and material goods are absent, so here is what that means. Magic is not really magical, so here is what happens when that system is corrupted. Deities aren't around so don't bother praying; you'll old die thirsty. Nobody has friends or allies or safety, so you'll have to deal with hostility, chattel slavery, gladiatorial games, and tyranny. The new additions like psionics and monsters are atypical or alien. Travel and survival are not foregone conclusions that can be handwaved away. Extraplanar travel is virtually impossible. It's post apocalyptic in ways that D&D settings generally aren't. Dark Sun is basically an inescapable megadungeon. I want it to stay that way, and if WotC releases a book that undermines that lore then I'm not interested in it.</blockquote>

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