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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Psion" data-source="post: 4526241" data-attributes="member: 172">To me, that's not a move to being 1e like. It might have matched its intent, but not actual play.1e and 2e multiclassing and dual-classing were very beneficial. You split XPs between classes, which meant that you had the abilities of 2 or 3 classes at a slightly lower level, but had all the abilities of each of those classes.Really, 3e's mechanic wherein levels were the root resource instead of classes, made single class characters more common from my perspective.In the face of the fact that the entire structure of saving throws has changed to an entirely new "target DC to cause the effect"/"make save to remove" paradigm, I think the net result is much less 1e.And yet, the 1e PHB gives me lovely little oddities like spetums and ranseurs, and bohemian ear-spoons.The mere mention of squares says to me that 4e is much more 3e than 1e. The "5 feet means 1 square thing" came into core rules in 3e. (It might have been in combat & tactics in 2e, but that's not core nor really "old school"... yet.) In 1e there's a reason you used the term inches: because you used a ruler to determine how far you moved or the radius of your spell effect on a surface that was not necessarily gridded.Other things that seem pretty blatantly "not 1e" to me in 4e. And admittedly, some of these it inherited from 3e:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Obsessive balance of options: 4e strives obsessively for the goal of making every race and class equivalent. Things didn't work that way in 1e. Some classes were managed/limited by "brass ring" mechanics (e.g., to be a paladin or ranger, you had to have rolled well enough in your stats), roleplaying restrictions, racial class restrictions or level caps, and limiting combinations of powerful classes with likewise powerful races or multiclassing.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Point buy stats the default: is there much else to say? That's old school champions or GURPS, maybe. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Spheres/circular areas of effect are round: This relates to the inches thing I was speaking about above.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Healing surges: We're not contrasting with 3e anymore; wands of cure light wands were not in 1e. After a knock-down drag-out fight, you pretty much could expect to rest the night. Unless you were brave enough to press on.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Majorly different class and race collection: There were no dragonborn, no tieflings (that's SO 2e), no warlords in 1e. There were gnomes in 1e. And eladrin would be called grey elves, and you'd be lucky if your DM let you play one (but you would want to.)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Way too consistent: Okay, a lot of these points hinge against 3e, but the fact that 4e inherits so much from 3e is a major part of my point here. To wit, for things like surprise, noticing secret doors, checking for traps, you didn't have a nice, unified skill system to hinge off of. You had a variety of little subsystems that uses a variety of different dice in 1e.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Different reality: Finally, the creatures and cosmology saw a major shift from 1e. Deities were redefined and mashed together, the great wheel nowhere to be seen, and succubi on the devils' payroll.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Save. Or. Die. Any lock could have a poison in it, any potion you sampled could kill you.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">An attack is an attack. (Well, at least until OA it was.) There was no menu of different attack options.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Vancian magic. Not only is an attack an attack, it's not a <s>spell</s> daily.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">(Tangible) Alignment and Paladins: In 4e, "unaligned" is an alignment, some of the original alignments have gone missing, and most alignment based magic is gone. This is in stark contrast to 1e, wherein a paladin lost their powers by behavior slips and deviating from you alignment meant paying a few XP to the piper.</li> </ul>To me these are a few of the major elements that make 4e not even remotely 1e/"old school" in feel to me.</blockquote>

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