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<blockquote data-quote="PapersAndPaychecks" data-source="post: 4527240" data-attributes="member: 28854">Oh, I certainly don't play 4e regularly.&nbsp; <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile&nbsp; &nbsp; :)"&nbsp; data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />&nbsp; I've leafed through someone else's copy of the rules, and I remember how I felt about them--nonplussed and confused that this was somehow &quot;D&amp;D&quot;.I felt how I'd feel if a record label produced an album by The Darkness, but called it Iron Maiden 4th Edition.&nbsp; After they'd stopped selling the Maiden back catalogue because we're all supposed to listen to Maiden 4e now. And then come onto messageboards pointing out all the reasons why Justin Timberlake is a much better choice for Maiden singer than Bruce Dickinson.&nbsp; And then someone played me the record and said, &quot;Hey, how'dya like the new Maiden album?&quot;I mean, The Darkness are an okay band, in some ways they're similar to Maiden (British, guitars, distortion pedals, high-pitched vocals, etc.).&nbsp; But a few superficial similarities and a brand name don't make them &quot;like&quot; Maiden.I feel like that about 4e.&nbsp; For me, the superficial similarities and the brand name don't make that product &quot;D&amp;D&quot;.&nbsp; Because for me, Maiden has Bruce Dickinson or Paul Di'Anno.&nbsp; And for me, D&amp;D has descending AC and THAC0.Anyway, I've subsequently talked to people who play and enjoy 4e, I've watched groups play it, etc.&nbsp; Maybe the people I saw were atypical.&nbsp; But from what I saw, morale wasn't a factor.You tell me it is, which is fair enough.&nbsp; I'll resist the urge to ask what a &quot;skill challenge&quot; is because actually, I don't want to know... but it does sound as if the player is deciding whether to test one of their skills to see if the monster flees.In other words, it's not the DM deciding what the monsters will do.&nbsp; The players are controlling that.&nbsp; Am I right?Because I would find that totally destructive to immersiveness and a perpetuation of what I see as the 3e paradigm where control of the game is taken away from the DM and handed to the players.I've tried not to rant, and I've tried to use lots of first person language to emphasize this is how *I* feel.&nbsp; I'm not being judgmental about 4e players.But for me, this game they play (regardless of its name) does not resemble what I understand by &quot;D&amp;D&quot;.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="PapersAndPaychecks, post: 4527240, member: 28854"] Oh, I certainly don't play 4e regularly. :) I've leafed through someone else's copy of the rules, and I remember how I felt about them--nonplussed and confused that this was somehow "D&D". I felt how I'd feel if a record label produced an album by The Darkness, but called it Iron Maiden 4th Edition. After they'd stopped selling the Maiden back catalogue because we're all supposed to listen to Maiden 4e now. And then come onto messageboards pointing out all the reasons why Justin Timberlake is a much better choice for Maiden singer than Bruce Dickinson. And then someone played me the record and said, "Hey, how'dya like the new Maiden album?" I mean, The Darkness are an okay band, in some ways they're similar to Maiden (British, guitars, distortion pedals, high-pitched vocals, etc.). But a few superficial similarities and a brand name don't make them "like" Maiden. I feel like that about 4e. For me, the superficial similarities and the brand name don't make that product "D&D". Because for me, Maiden has Bruce Dickinson or Paul Di'Anno. And for me, D&D has descending AC and THAC0. Anyway, I've subsequently talked to people who play and enjoy 4e, I've watched groups play it, etc. Maybe the people I saw were atypical. But from what I saw, morale wasn't a factor. You tell me it is, which is fair enough. I'll resist the urge to ask what a "skill challenge" is because actually, I don't want to know... but it does sound as if the [i]player[/i] is deciding whether to test one of their [i]skills[/i] to see if the monster flees. In other words, it's not the DM deciding what the monsters will do. The players are controlling that. Am I right? Because I would find that totally destructive to immersiveness and a perpetuation of what I see as the 3e paradigm where control of the game is taken away from the DM and handed to the players. I've tried not to rant, and I've tried to use lots of first person language to emphasize this is how *I* feel. I'm not being judgmental about 4e players. But for me, this game they play (regardless of its name) does not resemble what I understand by "D&D". [/QUOTE]

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