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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 5847048" data-attributes="member: 4937">If all you can do is post vaguely insulting assertions about by DMing style, even though those assertions about my game contridict the game style I've been vociferously advocating for some 10 years on EnWorld, then yeah, I think that would be my preference as well. Yes, I won't quibble with that, but you also showed me an almost completely sterotypical barbarian build with a stat array not significantly different than a lot of point buy builds and which matched up well with all my predictions about your 'random' generation.  You are using 4d6 drop lowest, arrange to taste, which is rather non-random in its results and on average produces results very close to point buy.  You could accomplish almost the exact same results with 27+1d6 point buy.  Because it is 'arrange to taste' it really loses alot of its randomness, and quickly approaches simply arranging the elite stat array to taste, which is as I predicted when I guessed what the play at your table was really like.  Likewise, for all your throwaway insults at people who don't play point buy - let's remind people what you said: "point-buy, cookie-cutter, archetype brothers" - the characters you are extolling look remarkably like cookie cutter archetypes and have stat arrays that closely resemble those found in my point buy game.  Moreover, all random point buy really does is winnow out weak characters (you have none in your samples), and force players with few strong scores (but at least one good score, like both your examples) to play a class with single attribute dependency - like Barbarian, Sorcerer, or Wizard.What you don't do is 3d6 in order (true random), nor do you laud how great it is to play the character that has a 14, 13, 12, 12, 11, 7 stat array.  Both of the characters have rolled the 16's and 17's necessary to define a character by his strong abilities, even though I just did 4d6 drop the lowest for 5 characters and produced between the 5 only two 16+ abilities, and even though I know from years and years of experience with random point buy that that's a slightly unusual and fortunate result. The only real advantage of random generation is not letting the player arrange his stats to taste, which forces the player to play 'odd' stat arrays and classes that are atypical and perhaps out of his normal comfort zone.   Once you allow the player to arrange the stats in order, and once you move to 4d6 drop lowest or 5d6 drop the two lowest, you are moving toward something that is relatively indistinguishable from point buy save that it produces relatively minor differences in character potential (and your two examples have relatively minor differences).As for backstory, you do realize don't you that people who play with point buy aren't backstory impaired?  There is nothing particularly special about that backstory.  It's just a backstory. The other?  As in you have just two?   I think you are being really niave.  The guy rolled a 17.   Tell me about how he's happy with a weak character when he's got no stats above 12 and his average across all stats is below 10.   To a certain extent I want to agree with you.  As a DM, I play all sorts of characters and get enjoyment out of it.  And as a PC,  I can enjoy RP for RP's sake and lean towards the thespian end of the player spectrum.   But to a large extent, I'm hearing the voice of inexperience.   Again, any character with a 19 in something is playable.   True randomness however regularly turns out characters with no good stats.   First edition tends to minimize the problems with randomness by making ability scores to not matter much over a wide range, but I've seen enough of the problems to know of what I speak. Your under several misconceptions there.  First, nothing about point buy prevents you from having interesting characters.  Second, you are somewhat getting the situation backwards.  With point buy, you play the human dwarf because you want to - not because you have to.  You are under the false perception that the purpose of point buy is to ensure mechanically sound characters.  But in my experience only about half of all players are using it primarily for that purpose.   The rest are ensuring that they get the unusual character that they think would be interesting to play.  I can't help but here limited system experience as well.  How many point buy systems have you played?  GURPS?  Star Wars?  White Wolf's story teller system?  The vast majority of systems don't use random stat generation.  Players don't seem to have trouble creating interesting backgrounds.Maybe.  But that's not something exclusive to random stat generation.  I've seen a whole lot of random stat generation characters without great backstories.  You keep mistaking game style for system.   If a player wants to create an interesting backstory, it won't matter what system you are using.   If the player isn't inclined (or able) to make an interesting backstory, it won't matter what system you are using.</blockquote>

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