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1E vs OSRIC
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<blockquote data-quote="Man in the Funny Hat" data-source="post: 5617116" data-attributes="member: 32740"><p>Definitely agree. This is 1E's greatest strength is its reliance and encouragement of DM and players working together to make more out of the game than is handed to them on the pages.</p><p> </p><p>I don't entirely agree or disagree. When 1E was written the prevailing style of play was certainly a more antagonistic one. Players have to try and PRY information out of the DM and the DM LOOKING for ways to "ambush" the players. The 1E rules and plenty of quotes from Gygax's prose therein certainly reflect that. The DMG was indeed deemed off limits but there WAS also a lot of useful information in there which there was no reason - even given the antagonistic setup - to keep from the players. Things like the combat matrices, saving throw charts, TONS of details on combat procedures. That wasn't "secret" stuff. It was stuff that players used CONSTANTLY.</p><p> </p><p>But there definitely was also stuff that players DIDN'T have any business seeing - magic items, how to set up and run a campaign, handling XP and treasure, rules for NPC's, etc. It's really that latter stuff that needed to be kept from players and why they were told to keep their schnozzes out of the DMG. The only reason the other stuff was IN the DMG was the way the 1E rules were being assembled and published. It was all piecemeal. Gygax was collating rules from many sources, it wasn't all his own devising and some of it he didn't even like or personally use. The DMG was published a full year after the PH and in the interval it was still being collated and written.</p><p> </p><p>That's why the 1E core books are so disorganized. Players should not necesarily be discouraged from reading the DMG because of the information in there that they SHOULD be learning. DM's simply have to take steps to keep players from reading things that they shouldn't/don't need to - even if it's just as simple as ASKING them not to read certain parts. As for the confusion of Gygaxian prose they simply have to be told firmly and repeatedly that the <u>DM</u> runs the game at their table - not the ghost of Gary Gygax. If there's confusion - ask the DM (whom Gary advised and expected to be adding/omitting/modifying the game anyway).</p><p> </p><p>Oh my, yes. 3E was built specifically around the idea that mastering the manipulation of the rules was where much of the fun was supposed to be. By doing that, however, they forgot the far greater importance of roleplaying interaction that made the game so popular in the first place.</p><p> </p><p>Ditto. 1E always did need to be revised for issues of clarity, balance, changing understanding of how an RPG actually can/does work, general informational organization, etc. But it's still a better basis to work from than the nearly over-designed 3rd Edition.</p><p> </p><p>1E was a game I loved immediately, grew to know its intricate faults and frailties, and willingly overlooked them while I sought improvements. 3E was a game that I also loved immediately, thought had cured so many of 1E/2E's ills, took longer to learn its faults and frailties - but they grate on me worse than 1E ever did and "ruled out" so much of what made 1E work as well as it did in its overreaching, mistaken approach to RULES.</p><p> </p><p>But I digress...</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Man in the Funny Hat, post: 5617116, member: 32740"] Definitely agree. This is 1E's greatest strength is its reliance and encouragement of DM and players working together to make more out of the game than is handed to them on the pages. I don't entirely agree or disagree. When 1E was written the prevailing style of play was certainly a more antagonistic one. Players have to try and PRY information out of the DM and the DM LOOKING for ways to "ambush" the players. The 1E rules and plenty of quotes from Gygax's prose therein certainly reflect that. The DMG was indeed deemed off limits but there WAS also a lot of useful information in there which there was no reason - even given the antagonistic setup - to keep from the players. Things like the combat matrices, saving throw charts, TONS of details on combat procedures. That wasn't "secret" stuff. It was stuff that players used CONSTANTLY. But there definitely was also stuff that players DIDN'T have any business seeing - magic items, how to set up and run a campaign, handling XP and treasure, rules for NPC's, etc. It's really that latter stuff that needed to be kept from players and why they were told to keep their schnozzes out of the DMG. The only reason the other stuff was IN the DMG was the way the 1E rules were being assembled and published. It was all piecemeal. Gygax was collating rules from many sources, it wasn't all his own devising and some of it he didn't even like or personally use. The DMG was published a full year after the PH and in the interval it was still being collated and written. That's why the 1E core books are so disorganized. Players should not necesarily be discouraged from reading the DMG because of the information in there that they SHOULD be learning. DM's simply have to take steps to keep players from reading things that they shouldn't/don't need to - even if it's just as simple as ASKING them not to read certain parts. As for the confusion of Gygaxian prose they simply have to be told firmly and repeatedly that the [U]DM[/U] runs the game at their table - not the ghost of Gary Gygax. If there's confusion - ask the DM (whom Gary advised and expected to be adding/omitting/modifying the game anyway). Oh my, yes. 3E was built specifically around the idea that mastering the manipulation of the rules was where much of the fun was supposed to be. By doing that, however, they forgot the far greater importance of roleplaying interaction that made the game so popular in the first place. Ditto. 1E always did need to be revised for issues of clarity, balance, changing understanding of how an RPG actually can/does work, general informational organization, etc. But it's still a better basis to work from than the nearly over-designed 3rd Edition. 1E was a game I loved immediately, grew to know its intricate faults and frailties, and willingly overlooked them while I sought improvements. 3E was a game that I also loved immediately, thought had cured so many of 1E/2E's ills, took longer to learn its faults and frailties - but they grate on me worse than 1E ever did and "ruled out" so much of what made 1E work as well as it did in its overreaching, mistaken approach to RULES. But I digress... [/QUOTE]
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