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2/18/13 L&L column
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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 6090062" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>Isn't there an argument, though, that the projection is justified? I mean, expecting the sun to rise tomorrow (and induction more generally) can be analysed as a species of projection, but that's not to say it's irrational!</p><p></p><p>In this particular case, if the experiences of experienced players have revealed, more-or-less-reliably, that the cleric is a distinctively un-fun role for many players, why build it in as obligatory?</p><p></p><p>Of course, there is also [MENTION=2067]Kamikaze Midget[/MENTION]'s argument that the current rules let you find traps without a rogue (INT check or whatever), let you do damage without the fighter (cast a spell) and let you sneak around and/or bullly people without an MU (DEX or CHA check as appropriate). Where is the ability to use a stat check to mitigate damage, or to restore it once lost? (I think a new player might find it pretty intuitive, once told their PC has been hit, to say "But I dodge!")</p><p></p><p>But even if KM's argument is put to one side, the experience of experienced players tells them that for many players the cleric is distinctively unfun to play.</p><p></p><p>This is not how I read KM. I took him to be saying two things:</p><p></p><p>(1) The Basic game should have elements for damage mitigation/restoration other than Cure Wounds spells (dodging/parrying being one obvious one - second wind of some sort being another pretty obvious one, I would say).</p><p></p><p>(2) That the newbie player of a cleric won't have to be <em>bullied</em> into taking heal spells, because a quick read of the class description, and review of the class spell list, will make it evident that healing is expected to be a major part of what a cleric does.</p><p></p><p>To the best of my understanding (and given his comments upthread both that "adventuring without a cleric should be possible" and "tackling a vampire-hunt without a cleric should be harder"), [MENTION=85555]Bedrockgames[/MENTION] is working with a more general and abstract conception of "the adventure" than you are: if you have a cleric, your adventure will include the experience of turning undead, frequent magical healing; if you have a fighter instead, your adventure will inclue the experience of more swords being swung but also more running away from wights; if you have a thief instead then your adventure will have more sneaking and less fighting; etc.</p><p></p><p>On this picture, "encounters" aren't the constituent elements of an adventure; the adventure consists (perhaps) of a goal or endpoint (defeating Strahd, perhaps, or looting the dragon's horde), but it is expected that the path to this endpoint, resources consumed along the way, etc, will vary radically across group compositions.</p><p></p><p>For my part, I agree with the stuff after the first paragraph and find it (or most of it - still not much wizardly healing) in 4e. (Though it is all called "healing" - a technical counterpart to "damage", and both a bit misleading given their ordinary English meanings.) It's a pity that implementation plus other features meant you couldn't enjoy those benefits! - maybe D&Dnext will manage to have this sort of stuff in a way that suits you.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 6090062, member: 42582"] Isn't there an argument, though, that the projection is justified? I mean, expecting the sun to rise tomorrow (and induction more generally) can be analysed as a species of projection, but that's not to say it's irrational! In this particular case, if the experiences of experienced players have revealed, more-or-less-reliably, that the cleric is a distinctively un-fun role for many players, why build it in as obligatory? Of course, there is also [MENTION=2067]Kamikaze Midget[/MENTION]'s argument that the current rules let you find traps without a rogue (INT check or whatever), let you do damage without the fighter (cast a spell) and let you sneak around and/or bullly people without an MU (DEX or CHA check as appropriate). Where is the ability to use a stat check to mitigate damage, or to restore it once lost? (I think a new player might find it pretty intuitive, once told their PC has been hit, to say "But I dodge!") But even if KM's argument is put to one side, the experience of experienced players tells them that for many players the cleric is distinctively unfun to play. This is not how I read KM. I took him to be saying two things: (1) The Basic game should have elements for damage mitigation/restoration other than Cure Wounds spells (dodging/parrying being one obvious one - second wind of some sort being another pretty obvious one, I would say). (2) That the newbie player of a cleric won't have to be [I]bullied[/I] into taking heal spells, because a quick read of the class description, and review of the class spell list, will make it evident that healing is expected to be a major part of what a cleric does. To the best of my understanding (and given his comments upthread both that "adventuring without a cleric should be possible" and "tackling a vampire-hunt without a cleric should be harder"), [MENTION=85555]Bedrockgames[/MENTION] is working with a more general and abstract conception of "the adventure" than you are: if you have a cleric, your adventure will include the experience of turning undead, frequent magical healing; if you have a fighter instead, your adventure will inclue the experience of more swords being swung but also more running away from wights; if you have a thief instead then your adventure will have more sneaking and less fighting; etc. On this picture, "encounters" aren't the constituent elements of an adventure; the adventure consists (perhaps) of a goal or endpoint (defeating Strahd, perhaps, or looting the dragon's horde), but it is expected that the path to this endpoint, resources consumed along the way, etc, will vary radically across group compositions. For my part, I agree with the stuff after the first paragraph and find it (or most of it - still not much wizardly healing) in 4e. (Though it is all called "healing" - a technical counterpart to "damage", and both a bit misleading given their ordinary English meanings.) It's a pity that implementation plus other features meant you couldn't enjoy those benefits! - maybe D&Dnext will manage to have this sort of stuff in a way that suits you. [/QUOTE]
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