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Message: <blockquote data-quote="DEFCON 1" data-source="post: 6090799" data-attributes="member: 7006">I'm genuinely surprised that people actually think that having a cleric in the party that allows a group to go from 4 encounters to 5 encounters in a day must ipso facto mean the cleric is more powerful than the other classes in the party.  Because you all seem to be missing the very real issue that it's not that the cleric is more powerful... but that the other classes become less powerful when they fall unconscious.You could mathematically make all four classes completely balanced in terms of damage doing and damage soaking (in whatever proportions you want).  But as soon as one of those characters falls unconscious... that character loses its potential.  It can no longer soak damage or deal damage.  Every round that PC is out of the fight... it's effectiveness DROPS within the group.So every single group composition is NEVER going to be equal in terms of being able to get through a certain number of encounters... not because certain classes are more powerful than others... but because group composition will dictate how many LOST ROUNDS of combat they will suffer based on PCs falling unconscious.So a group having a cleric (with magical healing) will of course be able to do more... because they are the only one of the four Basic classes that can raise someone from unconsciousness in a fight-- thereby reducing the number of LOST ROUNDS of combat the party will get.So for example, if you have two parties... the first with one of each of the Core Four, the second with fighter, two rogues and wizard... and they both get into the same exact fight against the same exact monster.  Then at some point, the first rogue of the party gets hit with a critical and falls unconscious.In Party #1, the cleric (which remember, is mathematically balanced against rogue #2) immediately heals the unconscious rogue who jumps up, withdraws from combat with like three hit points, and then spends the rest of the fight at range doing ranged damage (thereby helping get the fight over faster.)In Party #2, the rogue goes unconscious and never gets up.  Therefore, the party LOSES whatever extra damage he did at rangefor party #1, therefore their fight goes on longer, therefore the fighter and second rogue soak more damage from the monster, and therefore at the end of the fight party #2 has less resources than party #1 (even though both parties are completely balanced).  As a result... Party #2 might have to rest, whereas Party #1 might decide to move on for another encounter.THAT'S what having a cleric gets you.  The opportunity to do more encounters in a day because you lose less man-rounds to unconsciousness.  So then the big balancing issue becomes... how MANY man-rounds will the "non-cleric" party lose, and are they still able to remain fairly viable in that configuration?  If the answer is 'Yes'... then we're good.  A party with a cleric might do 5 encounters before resting, one without might only do 4.  And THAT'S OKAY.</blockquote>

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