2 Questions: Arcane Reach+Dimension Door / Epic quicken+metamagic for sorcerer

[Dthamilaye]

Hello again.

I would like to have some kind of opinions (or RAW answers) to the following questions:

1)
If a caster has Archmage PrC ability 'Arcane Reach' and a Dimension Door spell, can he 'touch' his groupmates within 30' to take them with him if he casts Dimension Door? Ie, the groupmates would not need to be next to him to get in to the Dimension Door. There are other spells too that say that the targets must be touched, and arcane reach gives 30' range to touch spells. I did not think about the issue until a player asked me if this could be possible. In a tight spot, it would be easier to jump out without the need to gather all players around the caster.

Dimension Door:

Target: You and touched objects or other touched willing creatures

Although it also says the following (that I had not noticed before now):

All creatures to be transported must be in contact with one another, and at least one of those creatures must be in contact with you.

But I'm not really sure if this means the thing that it says. If you happen to transport, for example, 10 targets, how can they all be in contact with each other. Ie, how can each 1 target touch all 9 other targets... no way to put those miniatures in a position on the battlemat like that. (Group-hug or Group-pile ). Isn't it enough that the caster touches all of them?


2)
Epic quicken feat, metamagiced spells and sorcerer.

Epic quicken:

AUTOMATIC QUICKEN SPELL [EPIC]
Prerequisites: Quicken Spell, Spellcraft 30 ranks, ability to cast 9th-level arcane or divine spells.
Benefit: The character may cast all 0-, 1st-, 2nd-, and 3rd-level spells as quickened spells without using higher-level spell slots. The normal limit to the number of quickened spells a character may cast per round applies. Spells with a casting time of more than 1 full round can’t be quickened.
Special: A character can gain this feat multiple times. Each time a character takes the feat, the spells of his or her next three lowest spell levels can now be quickened with no adjustment to their spell slots. This feat doesn’t increase the casting time for those spells that normally become full-round actions when cast in metamagic form.

I understand that a sorcerer with this feat could quicken 1-3 lvl spells without changing their casting time. Ie, he could really cast quickened spells as they are ment to be cast.
The thing I would like to clear out is that can the sorcerer also use metamagics on the quickened spells? Ie, instead of quickened fireball, could he cast quickened, empowered magic missile without changing its casting time? I would say yes and I bolded the part of the SRD text that I think was the important part, as 'normally become full-round actions' imho includes all metamagiced spells that are, after adding metamagic level adjustment, 3rd level or lower.


Thank You again.

 

[Li Shenron]

1)
If a caster has Archmage PrC ability 'Arcane Reach' and a Dimension Door spell, can he 'touch' his groupmates within 30' to take them with him if he casts Dimension Door?

I think the RAW intends the ability to be used only on spells which have an entry Range: Touch, and requires a ranged touch attack to connect (although in the case of a willing creature you may come up with some rule on the spot to make it easier).
If I was your DM however I would try to come to help and make it work with DD because the idea is very nice, even if it doesn't exactly have Range: Touch.

2)Epic quicken feat, metamagiced spells and sorcerer.

The thing I would like to clear out is that can the sorcerer also use metamagics on the quickened spells? Ie, instead of quickened fireball, could he cast quickened, empowered magic missile without changing its casting time?

I have a sudden doubt whether applying 2 metamagic feats on the same spell increases the casting time twice or only once...
If it increases only once, then a Epic-quickened spell is always a free action no matter how many other metamagic are applied; if the increases to casting time are cumulative, then Epic-quickened gives only a "discount" (so that if you apply EQ + another one metamagic, the casting time is increased only once).

 

[Dthamilaye]

Hi, and thanks for the opinions.

... if the increases to casting time are cumulative, then Epic-quickened gives only a "discount" (so that if you apply EQ + another one metamagic, the casting time is increased only once).

If the situation would be like the 'discount' you say, then the Epic quicken would give the quickening of the spell 'free of charge'. Any other metamagic in addition to the quicken would make it a full-round action. At least this is how I understood it.

On the other hand, the Epic quicken says that any spell that normally would become a full-round action for adding metamagics on it, could be still cast as quickened with that feat. At least that's how i understand the bolded part of my quote.

 

[Li Shenron]

Wah... I play a Sorcerer and I cannot answer this question...

 

[Pax]

1)
If a caster has Archmage PrC ability 'Arcane Reach' and a Dimension Door spell, can he 'touch' his groupmates within 30' to take them with him if he casts Dimension Door?

No. The "touching" part of Dimension Door is like carrying them. Not like a quick tap-and-release.

2)
The thing I would like to clear out is that can the sorcerer also use metamagics on the quickened spells? Ie, instead of quickened fireball, could he cast quickened, empowered magic missile without changing its casting time? I would say yes and I bolded the part of the SRD text that I think was the important part, as 'normally become full-round actions' imho includes all metamagiced spells that are, after adding metamagic level adjustment, 3rd level or lower.

Yes.

The FAQ for the ELH addressed this, IIRC - but the way it works, in basic terms, is: the spell's casting time is increased by the non-Autoquicken metamagics, to a full round action.

Then the spell is automatically Quickened, and it's casting time is reduced to the usual Free Action of a quickened spell.

Remember, "full round action" is not the same as 1 round, when it comes to casting times.

 

[Dthamilaye]

Thanks . Gonna relay these to the player in question.

 

[Mephistopheles]

The FAQ for the ELH addressed this, IIRC - but the way it works, in basic terms, is: the spell's casting time is increased by the non-Autoquicken metamagics, to a full round action.

Then the spell is automatically Quickened, and it's casting time is reduced to the usual Free Action of a quickened spell.

The ELH FAQ does answer a question on using Automatic Quicken Spell to quicken a metamagicked spell but it makes no comment on the casting times for spontaneous casters when doing so. Do you have another reference for this or is it based on your memory of the ELH FAQ?

 

[ruleslawyer]

Hello again.

Hi there!

I would like to have some kind of opinions (or RAW answers) to the following questions:

1)
If a caster has Archmage PrC ability 'Arcane Reach' and a Dimension Door spell, can he 'touch' his groupmates within 30' to take them with him if he casts Dimension Door?

By the RAW, absolutely not.

The archmage can use spells with a range of touch on a target up to 30 feet away.

Dimension Door
...
Range: Long (400 ft. +40 ft./level)

Range is a technical term with a clearly-defined meaning, and the range of DD is Long, not Touch. Thus, it is unaffected by Arcane Reach.

2) ...instead of quickened fireball, could he cast quickened, empowered magic missile without changing its casting time?

The answer is that the FAQ section to which Pax refers does not apply here, since that, AFAICT, is about whether you use original spell level or effective level to determine whether AQS applies.

The issue that you're bringing up is an order of operations: Do you apply Empower first (thus raising the spell's casting time to a full-round action) and then Quicken (which should bring the casting time down to a free action, although it's worth noting that a full-round action casting time is different from "1 full round" and thus it's unclear whether Quicken will work anyway), or do you apply Quicken first and then Empower, thus raising the casting time to a full-round action?

I'd say it's unclear, and thus you should use whatever you consider the most balanced approach. Will it break the game if a sorcerer can empower a spell without a casting time increase, as long as he can quicken it too? At epic levels, probably not. Thus, I'd allow AQS to be used to quicken spells to which other metamagic feats have been applied, provided that the effective level of the spell is within the limit prescribed by AQS.

 

[Dthamilaye]

Thank You very much. I will propably let the sorcerer in question to metamagic the spells that he quickens. It probably won't break the game and gives more leevay of what he could cast. Of course, the effective level must be within AQS limits.