2 shaman SC question

[Wonderland666]

1. Rangeproblem:
Rules:
If i use Protective Roots ( Level 2 Utility PP)
The Power has 'close Burst Spirit 1)
The Target ist: You and each ally in Burst.
Q: Does the shaman itself must be adjacent to his SC to get the effect?.

2. Timing Problem of Movement
Rules:
a)You may pass trough the Square of an ally, but can't end you movement in his Square.
b)Your SC occupies 1 Square, so you can't end your turn in his square.
c)When you take a move action,you can also move the spirit a number of squares equal to your speed.

Q: You are adjecent to your SC, you are completly surrounded by Monsters. Can you shift in the square of your SC and the SC moves in you Square?

 

[Garris]

Rules:
Q: Does the shaman himself need to be adjacent to his SC to get the effect?

Q: You are adjacent to your SC, you are completely surrounded by Monsters. Can you shift into the square of your SC and the SC move into you Square?

The answer to the first is yes. The wording is to allow you to benefit when applicable, unlike a majority of Shaman buffing effects.

The second is...rough. It really is a timing issue, and relates to the question 'can there be truly simultaneous actions?' If so, it seems reasonable that the two could swap places. If not, the Spirit Companion isn't even an Ally, so a double move wouldn't even help due to the wording of Occupied squares. This would then require a minor to dismiss, a move to shift, and another minor (or free) to conjure again. For what it's worth, I recommend not being surrounded on all sides save one, which is surrounded on all sides but yours. It doesn't lead to a happy life.

 

[fba827]

1. Rangeproblem:
Rules:
If i use Protective Roots ( Level 2 Utility PP)
The Power has 'close Burst Spirit 1)
The Target ist: You and each ally in Burst.
Q: Does the shaman itself must be adjacent to his SC to get the effect?.

Based on the wording of the power, I would say that you do not need to be adjacent to the SC (but any ally who is going to get the effects must be). If it required you to be in the SC's burst 1, it would have said "if you are adjacent to SC ..." like it does for a couple other powers. 'You' is always written as a separate clause/condition than 'allies' since you are not your ally (by definition).

Example: You 5 squares away from your SC, your SC with allies A and B adjacent to SC, and ally C not adjacent to you nor SC. In this case, you cast Protective Roots and you, allies A and B all gain the effects
(You because the target says you, and A and B because they are allies within the burst).

That's just my take on it. Take it as an opinion since I'm no expert

2. Timing Problem of Movement
Rules:
a)You may pass trough the Square of an ally, but can't end you movement in his Square.
b)Your SC occupies 1 Square, so you can't end your turn in his square.
c)When you take a move action,you can also move the spirit a number of squares equal to your speed.

Q: You are adjecent to your SC, you are completly surrounded by Monsters. Can you shift in the square of your SC and the SC moves in you Square?

In this case, even though you and your SC are taking your move actions at the same time, I (personal opinion) would say no to this since in D&D nothing is truly happening at the same time.

My personal unofficial rule of thumb is that "When you take a movement action, as a free action your SC can move up to your speed." (thus separating the idea of it being simultaneous because its two action types, a move and a free, but still having the same effect.. just sequential).

But all that is just my take on it - as said above, I am no expert, so take it just as an opinion.

 

[Dan'L]

Based on the wording of the power, I would say that you do not need to be adjacent to the SC (but any ally who is going to get the effects must be). If it required you to be in the SC's burst 1, it would have said "if you are adjacent to SC ..." like it does for a couple other powers. 'You' is always written as a separate clause/condition than 'allies' since you are not your ally (by definition).

Example: You 5 squares away from your SC, your SC with allies A and B adjacent to SC, and ally C not adjacent to you nor SC. In this case, you cast Protective Roots and you, allies A and B all gain the effects
(You because the target says you, and A and B because they are allies within the burst).

What you are forgetting is that in order to be legally targetted by an effect or power, the Target must still be within the Range of the power. In your example, even though "You" can be a legal target according to the "Target" line of the power, being outside of the power's "Range" precludes your benefiting from the effects. (ex., Tide of Iron has target "one creature," but if that creature moves outside of your weapon range due to an immediate interrupt shift, your attack will not deal damage.)

In this case, even though you and your SC are taking your move actions at the same time, I (personal opinion) would say no to this since in D&D nothing is truly happening at the same time.

And I'd be inclined to say "yes," since it's a nice reflection of how in tune a Shaman is with his Spirit Companion that he could pull off this kind of do-si-do switch with it. The SC is intricately tied to the Shaman anyway, as evinced by the relationship of HP and damage.

Realize, though, that the Spirit Companion can only "move your speed," it cannot shift, so this movement of 1 square to switch places with you will draw OAs from the surrounding enemies against your SC.

-Dan'L

 

[fba827]

What you are forgetting is that in order to be legally targetted by an effect or power, the Target must still be within the Range of the power. In your example, even though "You" can be a legal target according to the "Target" line of the power, being outside of the power's "Range" precludes your benefiting from the effects. (ex., Tide of Iron has target "one creature," but if that creature moves outside of your weapon range due to an immediate interrupt shift, your attack will not deal damage.)

You know what -- that did convince me of a fact I was overlooking. I change my previously stated opinion. You do need to, along with any allies, be adjacent to your SC in order to be affected by the power.

And I'd be inclined to say "yes," since it's a nice reflection of how in tune a Shaman is with his Spirit Companion that he could pull off this kind of do-si-do switch with it. The SC is intricately tied to the Shaman anyway, as evinced by the relationship of HP and damage.

Eh, that part still hasn't convinced me - I (personally) would still prefer the movement to be happening as separate steps (albeit part of the same move action). But it's just my opinion

Realize, though, that the Spirit Companion can only "move your speed," it cannot shift, so this movement of 1 square to switch places with you will draw OAs from the surrounding enemies against your SC.

Agreed. In case the original poster didn't realize this to be the case, it is a good reminder.

 

[DracoSuave]

Realize, though, that the Spirit Companion can only "move your speed," it cannot shift, so this movement of 1 square to switch places with you will draw OAs from the surrounding enemies against your SC.

-Dan'L

The spirit companion is not a creature, and does not draw opportunity attacks from moving. It is similiar to a flaming sphere in that regard. It also does not have opportunity attacks, and it does not take actions. In short, it is in no way, shape, or form a creature.

The only reason it can be attacked by melee and ranged attacks at all is specifically because the rules text for the Call Spirit Companion power state so.

 

[Dan'L]

I'm not stating or implying that a Spirit Companion is a "creature" in any way that 4e D&D defines it. However...

The only reason it can be attacked by melee and ranged attacks at all is specifically because the rules text for the Call Spirit Companion power state so.

And right there you have the proof that a Spirit Companion can be hit by OAs. "The spirit can be targeted by melee or ranged attacks" (PHB2 p. 120) and what is an OA, other than a melee attack? There is nothing in the rules for Spirit Companions that exempt them from OAs.

There is nothing in the rules for Conjurations which specifically disallow them from drawing OAs other than the general rule that a conjuration can't be attacked (PHB2 p. 220), which is overruled by the power description fro Call Spirit Companion.

If it can be attacked, it can be attacked by any creature able to make attacks (such as OAs.) The ability to make an OA is predicated only on an adjacent enemy making a provoking action (i.e. moving, making a ranged attack, or making an area attack) and the the individual's ability to make an OA (i.e. only one per opponent's turn, not under certain specific effects which preclude making attacks or OAs.) (PHB p. 290)

So, in the three most relevant rules sections I could think to check, I can find nothing that would exempt a Spirit Companion from drawing OAs; if you have rules support for your claim, please post it.

-Dan'L

 

[DracoSuave]

I'm not stating or implying that a Spirit Companion is a "creature" in any way that 4e D&D defines it. However...

Before we start, please notice this question has already been addressed by WotC.

And right there you have the proof that a Spirit Companion can be hit by OAs. "The spirit can be targeted by melee or ranged attacks" (PHB2 p. 120) and what is an OA, other than a melee attack? There is nothing in the rules for Spirit Companions that exempt them from OAs.

Opportunity Attacks can only be triggered by the following things:

A creature uses a ranged or area power adjacent to you.


A spirit companion cannot use powers, so therefore this cannot ever apply.

A creature enters a square adjacent to you.

A spirit companion is not a creature and therefore this cannot ever apply.

While I agree with you that if an OA were ever triggered by a spirit companion, that it would be a legal target for a melee basic attack, what you fail to realize is that the spirit companion never triggers that OA to begin with.

Also, OA is not a power.

There is nothing in the rules for Conjurations which specifically disall
ow them from drawing OAs other than the general rule that a conjuration can't be attacked (PHB2 p. 220), which is overruled by the power description fro Call Spirit Companion.

Only creatures can trigger an opportunity attack. Powers are not creatures unless otherwise stated.

If it can be attacked, it can be attacked by any creature able to make attacks (such as OAs.)

That I do agree with...

The ability to make an OA is predicated only on an adjacent enemy making a provoking action (i.e. moving, making a ranged attack, or making an area attack) and the the individual's ability to make an OA (i.e. only one per opponent's turn, not under certain specific effects which preclude making attacks or OAs.) (PHB p. 290)

However, the conjuration is not an enemy. An enemy is a creature who is not your ally. The conjuration is not a creature, therefore not an enemy, and therefore cannot trigger opportunity attacks.

So, in the three most relevant rules sections I could think to check, I can find nothing that would exempt a Spirit Companion from drawing OAs; if you have rules support for your claim, please post it.

-Dan'L

The fact that it can never trigger an opportunity attack, because it is a power effect, not an enemy.

 

[Wonderland666]

Realize, though, that the Spirit Companion can only "move your speed," it cannot shift, so this movement of 1 square to switch places with you will draw OAs from the surrounding enemies against your SC.

-Dan'L

This is not a problem an SC never draws AO, because it is a conjuration. And so it moves my speed when i use a moveaktion.(and shift is moveaktion)

we had this situation last week, in a small group when the DM rolls goddly on initative you can have this situation. (SC sourrounded by minions, i was surrundet by normal guys. With a running Prot. Roots it was better to stand in the place of the SC)


I have a third question btw:
Does the SC garant me and my allies Cover?
( There is a feat 'Stone Heart Spirit' in PP EpIc that do so, but i don't understand why i don't have this feature from the Beginning (according to Rules, not to game balancing)

 

[DracoSuave]

I have a third question btw:
Does the SC garant me and my allies Cover?
( There is a feat 'Stone Heart Spirit' in PP EpIc that do so, but i don't understand why i don't have this feature from the Beginning (according to Rules, not to game balancing)

No, it is not an ally, and does not block or obscure Line of Sight or Line of Effect.