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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ovinomancer" data-source="post: 7977043" data-attributes="member: 16814">Well, yes, we're talking about that lack of experience.  That you play Fate the same way you play D&D, as a GM decides game, and do not embrace player authority to introduce binding fictional elements has been clearly established.  That there's other ways to play were players have authority to introduce binding fiction is what you seem to be missing and glossing over as 'same/same.'  I play 5e as GM decides, and I play Blades in the Dark as absolutely NOT GM decides (I have very restricted fictional authorities as GM in Blades) and I can tell you they deliver rather different experiences.  And, you cannot hack 5e to get to Blades without a LOT of houseruling.Sigh.  Again, if that's your reduction, you're missing the point.  5e is always going to be GM decides.  It doesn't allow for player introduction of material that isn't approved by the GM.  Players have no way to introduce binding resolutions on the GM without GM allowing it.  The "flexible" exists only insomuch as the GM allows it.  That's not flexibility, it's permission.  It's like claiming that totalitarianism is a good form of government because you might get an enlightened dictator.  It's a form of special pleading.In other words, 5e is not flexible because it states GM decides is how it works.  That's intransigent.  If an individual GM decides to graciously allow players to have some input, subject to veto or alteration by the GM of course, that doesn't change the fundamental nature of the game.And, that's not a dig.  Lots of games work this way and are still fun.  This is due largely to there being more enlightened dictator GMs out there, or at least a preponderance of GMs that try, compared to the smaller pool of tinpots.  So, the game works, but it's not flexible.  I does D&D super well and everything else poorly, if at all.  You cannot run Ocean's Eleven in D&D without hacking the system, for instance.It sounds like the group as a whole, you included, didn't embrace the core differences of the system.  And, as you say, if you felt compels were unfair usurpation of the player's control, then you indeed miss a fundamental part of how that system works, so it's hard to blame your players for the failure.  I'm sure they missed it, too, but you didn't do a great job teaching if you didn't grasp the system differences.Also, iirc correctly, you stated beforehand that you did build adventures.  Perhaps that was someone else, but I recall a description of a game that was as tightly scripted as a usual D&D adventure and that floored me.  Willing to accept a misattribution, here.It's a piece of cake to rerail that adventure.  As others have noted in this thread, provide a different path to the information.  You can make it a bit more painful to pay off the failed attempt, but it's trivial to find a way to place that information.  Honestly, it's not much info, anyway, as the source of it is fiat killed before the juicy bits are served up anyway, so you just need to get the limited info out some other way.  It's one of the poorer parts of that adventure, honestly, as it's written that this is the way to find out what's going on, but it's just another fiat cut-scene scripted to give just enough to move to the next section without any real answers.  The PCs don't actually get real plot points until the next chapter, and, even then, it's limited.  SKT is a huge adventure, spanning lots of area, with a great middle section that's an awesome sandbox.  That middle part, though, is gated by a very linear, scripted adventure and then ends with more of the same.  The middle part is tremendous, though.I ran it (the only official adventure I've run in 5e, I tend to homebrew, but events led to the necessity to get into something quickly and that was new at the time), but I ended up with heavy revisions to the plotline.</blockquote>

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