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Message: <blockquote data-quote="GMMichael" data-source="post: 9429011" data-attributes="member: 6685730">Since heads are spinning over in this thread . . .[URL unfurl="true"]https://www.enworld.org/threads/new-stealth-rules.705814[/URL]. . . I thought some perspective on stealth would be nice.  I'll use the Modos 2 rulebook as my example of what stealth could (should?) look like.The TL;DR is that there is one primary rule and two skills (considered list items, not rules) involved in sneaking around.  The rule is Awareness, which says that a character cannot defend against another's attack without being aware of the other (or its attack).  The two skills are Sneak and Detect, and their usage is mainly to apply bonuses to rolls made for the situation.  The PC gets a good outcome (a Pro) for rolling higher than the opposition, should the GM ask for a roll.  There's no Hide Action or Invisibility condition that need defining; there's just the PC's desire to become hidden, and the rolls that the GM calls for to resolve the situation.  With few governing rules, it's up to the GM and PC to tell the story of what happens when the PC attempts to sneak past an observer.[SPOILER="Gritty Details"]The Modos 2 Hide Action looks like this:So the PC just tells the GM that she's hiding.  "I hide behind the corner, where the guards at the front entrance can't see me" (to use [USER=6801209]@mellored[/USER] 's example).  If the GM wants a roll to see how well it goes, he can ask for one.  Since it's not a mental or spiritual exercise, he'd probably say "roll a physical contest," and the PC would add her Sneak skill points (if available), in addition to her physical bonus to the roll (her Contest).  The result doesn't establish invisibility as a condition, and there's no Success or Failure; the PC is just hiding.The Modos 2 Sneak skill looks like this:Awareness is a rule related to defenses; if an opponent isn't aware of you, it can't defend against your attack(s).  A "Pro . . . contest" is a roll result that exceeds the rolls of those opposing it.  "Walking past the guards" at the front entrance would clearly make them aware of the PC, regardless of her contest.  The PC may object, "but my contest was off the chart!  Can the guards beat a 25 to detect me?"  The GM could 1) point out that it's the GM who decides if rolls are needed, or 2) roll a contest for the guards, applying the Difficulty bonus of spotting someone walking by in decent lighting.  The latter might include a reference to the game's only table, the Difficulty table, which gives a +8 bonus for Difficult actions, or +12 for Arduous actions (+16 is Impossible, but we'll assume that it's not impossible to walk straight past a guard without her noticing someone).Suppose there is a reason that the guards wouldn't notice the PC walking past.  There's a battle, or a riot, or it's a moonless night.  Maybe the guards are both sleeping.  The GM can roll a contest for the guards to detect the PC and apply a Difficulty penalty.  This is likely a mental contest, since it involves senses and attention.  The guards could use the Detect skill if they have it:There's no requirement for the GM to treat the guards as PCs; the difficulty of sneaking past guards can simply be a Difficulty Contest (as with the Arduous penalty above).  The GM can instead model the contest after a PC's effort, using the guard's mental bonus and detect skill points as bonuses and guard's difficulty of finding someone in adverse conditions as a penalty to his roll.The outcome of comparing contests is a Pro or Con - a good or bad result.  These depend on what the GM and PC think has happened.  Let's say that the PC attempted to sneak past in broad daylight, and the GM decided to roll an opposing contest.  Even if the PC gets a Pro, she can still be spotted.  "The guards, not being blind, see your approach.  One says, 'hey, you're a fellow Southlander, aren't you?  I'll let you in, but I want half of what's in that sack when you leave."  (The Sneak Pro would indicate that the guards don't have Awareness, so they would be unable to defend if the PC should decide to make some sort of attack at that time.)  Perhaps the PC's hero points (player-designed features) are "moves like a vampire."  If the PC rolls a Con (i.e. the guards roll a Pro) the PC can still dash through the shadows to pass the guards unseen, but the guards feel such a wave of fear as the PC passes that they alert the sergeant of the guard without knowing who (or what) has been near.Things don't change much if the PC is in combat, where actions are normally tracked.  The guards already have Awareness of the PC (or else she wouldn't be in combat).  The PC can announce her intent to hide, whether or not she's "heavily obscured" or behind "total cover" or "in an enemy's line of sight."  Being obscured or behind cover should grant the PC a difficulty bonus to her physical contest to hide, depending on the conditions, and the guards would know where they last saw the PC clearly.  Attacking the hidden PC becomes more difficult because the guards need Awareness for that, and the Sneak skill requires them to roll a contest for Awareness.  The GM can decide if detecting the PC is a non-action (part of the effort of attacking her), or if an action is required to do some searching.  A Pro mental contest to detect the PC means the guards have Awareness, and can thus attack the PC, who might still benefit from obscurity depending on the situation. Should the guards roll Cons to detect, the PC can still take an action to pass the guards.  The situation still suggests that guards would have Awareness of someone emerging from concealment.  But if the PC timed her actions right, she can "walk past the guards" when they have no actions left to use in the round.  The narrative of this might imply that the guards were busy searching when she found an opening to sneak through the entrance, or any other creative explanation the PC and GM can imagine.[/SPOILER]Does this answer questions?  Raise questions?  Make the new D&D rules look better? <img class="smilie smilie--emoji" alt="🤓" src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f913.png" title="Nerd face    :nerd:" data-shortname=":nerd:" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" /> I hope a simplified, narrative approach offers an alternative for those stumbling over a more technical approach to stealth!</blockquote>

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